Karen, Ben and Jennifer followup on the last fasting show with a few questions on the details of a successful fast. Sweeteners, insulin and metabolic issues. Show notes below!


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  • 4:00 When can I start fasting? Keto, adaptation, 6 weeeks or more of keto
  • 6:30 What can I consume while fasting? Water, black coffee, tea, no sweeteners. Fasting for insulin holiday, weight loss & autophagy vs crutches and 50 cals/day. Why we do fasting/intermittent fasting vs caloric restriction, for hormonal advantages.
  • 11:00 Do egg fasts count as fasting because they’re low-insulinogenic? No – eggs are better than Cheerios but protein affects insulin.
  • 13:45 Taking supplements while fasting? Skip them, they can be difficult on the stomach, except for electrolytes. Talkw with your doctor about medications – metformin XR in particular is better while fasting. If you need to take some good with meds during a fast, chia pudding is a good choice.
  • 20:00 Does coffee interfere with autophagy? We agree coffee is awesome, lengthens telomeres and may have a positive effect on aging and longevity. But it’s not water.
  • 22:30 Dry fasting… is that good? Not recommended.. has been observed to lead to hospitalization in some cases. No bueno! We discuss optimal hydration
  • 27:00 Exercising while fasting? Zone 2 cardio is great. Heavy resistance training that causes DOMS (delayed onset muscle syndrome)/muscle soreness needs to be repaired using amino acids. Window for supplying amino acids after an intense workout to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS) is roughly 4 hours. Branch Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) are useful to optimize recovery. (Ben recommends Nutricost Green Apple BCAAs http://amzn.to/2ASCv42 )
  • 39:30 Lemon water while fasting? Citric acids are ok but flavorings can be perceived to be tasty and trigger cephalilc insulin response in some people. Lemon water is great for digestion but not helpful during fasting.
  • 42:00 Diabetics whose blood glucose goes up while fasting – what’s going on there? Dawn phenomenon, insulin resistance, exercise – aquafit. Tradeoffs between moderately high blood glucose (120-130) and healing that happens during fasting, Dr. Westman and Fung’s practices discussed, and gluconeogenesis, glucagon responses, beta cell issues.
  • 47:00 Is there research showing fasting + keto works to heal insulin resistance more than just keto? No. Valter Longo’s tried to get studies approved but human ethics boards won’t approve studies for fasting in humans, and can’t get funding for fasting since no “products” involved. Research on fasting for longer than 12 hours is not allowed. Some people have beta cell issues that mean they can’t safely fast. Work with your doctor, get a c-peptide test to measure your beta cell health. If you’ve been keto for months and still have a high a1c, get a c-peptide test!
  • 53:45 Phinney’s post on Virta Health blog saying fasting is bad for various reasons, whats up with that? He says you lose lean body mass, but that’s what you want with autophagy and when you refeed properly it comes back, mostly. Phinney just says there’s insufficient scientific evidence, which is true (but it’s coming!) Intermittent fasting practitioners have success and don’t report wasting away. Also priorities – recovering from obesity and metabolic disease is higher priority than loss of some lean body mass. Phinney says fasting isn’t necessary, and that’s true, but we say fasting (just intermittent fasts up to 48 hrs) helps with compliance and is safe.
  • 106:30 Gut biome and fasting, does that hurt the gut health? Yes but short fasts of up to 48 hours aren’t a huge impact. If your poop’s ok then you’re good to go. Should I feed the gut biome during a fast by taking fiber supplements? Doesn’t seem to be necessary, might be bad, definitely helps fart production. Probiotics on refeeds are a good idea. Disruption of gut biome a sign that longer fasts may be problematic.


00:00 this podcast was brought to you by
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00:12 get coached for more information well
00:21 hello and welcome to another edition of
00:24 the impulsive keto cast
00:25 I’m your host Ben McDonald in today’s
00:28 episode is fasting follow up questions
00:30 we recently did a show on different
00:33 fasting stuff and there were a lot of
00:35 follow up questions so I brought along a
00:37 few co-hosts to help me with this Karen
00:40 are you with us I’m here Ben are you
00:43 doing all is will Jennifer how you doing
00:47 I’m fabulous I got my bulletproof coffee
00:49 just kidding oh how dare you black
00:53 coffee with salt and I’m raring to go
00:56 nice well Jennifer we have you to blame
01:00 for this show mostly from what I
01:01 understand I have so many questions
01:04 about fasting it’s hard to say where to
01:06 begin there does seem to be a number of
01:10 topics that come up over and over and
01:14 over again when we first got started
01:16 with doing some of these shows Karen and
01:20 I actually shot a show called
01:22 ten keto questions were tired of
01:23 answering because there were a lot of
01:26 questions we would see on the board over
01:28 and over again and here in the for the
01:30 fasting side of the house I think
01:32 ultimately that’s probably what we
01:34 should title this show as ten fasting
01:36 questions we’re tired of answering here
01:39 we go again on another lap of these ah
01:42 I’m not really tired of answering them
01:44 it’s just you know every day I open up
01:48 my my personal messages and it seems to
01:50 be the same pretty basic fascinating
01:53 question so I think we can go over them
01:55 one more time okay because I mean it’s
01:59 so simple you know fast okay what do you
02:02 do you don’t eat mm-hmm well alright
02:06 we’re done move on people do like like
02:10 to complicate the issue a little bit
02:12 I mean if there weren’t other things to
02:14 consider Fung wouldn’t have two books
02:16 out there or he would have two really
02:18 short books out there it’s interesting
02:20 how you can tell somebody well it’s
02:22 really simple a drink water and don’t
02:24 skip a meal and they go well I would
02:28 like to know about 27 little corner
02:30 cases and exceptions to that very simple
02:32 approach we’re not going to say that’s a
02:36 tell but there’s definitely a betrayal
02:41 of intent with we knew immediately get
02:45 the but I have questions what can I eat
02:49 [Laughter]
02:53 these basic ones okay your buddies have
02:57 forgotten because you are so expert and
02:59 experienced in this but I remember the
03:01 first time that I tried fasting I was
03:03 terrified I was like what if it’s gonna
03:06 really mess me up what if I’m gonna be
03:08 so hungry it drives me crazy you know I
03:10 was scared I’d never missed a meal in my
03:12 life I think I mean damn right
03:15 so you’d be back in your backyard eating
03:17 watching and eggs or something
03:19 ever-loving mind
03:21 yeah send me a metabolic death spiral I
03:24 can remember I had concerns too you know
03:27 will I be able to just function on my my
03:31 day to day schedule will I be able to do
03:32 things like exercise Drive that kind of
03:34 stuff right
03:35 will I be too tired right so have some
03:41 sympathy for just starting out okay guys
03:44 all right well usually the first
03:48 question that people ask is when can I
03:51 start
03:51 when’s the best time to start fasting I
03:53 know for myself I I waited that probably
03:58 until I was about 12 weeks and Jennifer
04:01 did you did you start fasting right away
04:03 when you began eating a ketogenic diet
04:05 or did you start leader no I waited
04:10 about a couple of months it wasn’t
04:12 because I knew to wait a couple of
04:14 months I just realized a couple of
04:16 months in that I wasn’t hungry and so I
04:18 started to consider you know if I’m not
04:20 hungry
04:21 why should I eat yeah
04:24 normally when Ben and I were first hand
04:27 cranking up macros for people if we
04:30 noticed that they were likely insulin
04:33 resistant or they were dealing with
04:34 metabolic syndrome we would kind of
04:36 throw in a little attachment to funds
04:39 blog you know just kind of slide it in
04:42 there like you might want to consider
04:44 this and our suggestion
04:46 I do believe Ben was six weeks after six
04:50 weeks to consider passing
04:52 yeah and that just it gets people to the
04:55 point where they aren’t as hungry
04:58 they’ve got that that month in a bit
05:00 under their belts of keto so appetite is
05:03 suppressed it had and it just makes it
05:05 easier you know I’m Jewish and once a
05:08 year we have Yom Kippur and you you’re
05:10 supposed to fast from sundown one day to
05:13 sundown the next day yeah and everybody
05:15 always makes it out like this is you
05:17 know it’s hard and we’re gonna really
05:19 you know it’s gonna be a trial we’re
05:21 gonna get through that 24-hour period
05:24 for God because God commands it yeah you
05:28 know there are lots of different
05:30 cultures and religions that have fasting
05:32 as a regular practice I’m Catholic so
05:35 there is fasting on certain days of the
05:37 year a lot of people participate in
05:39 fasting during Lent my point is that it
05:43 was hard I remember yeah but now once I
05:47 got adapted to keto and I didn’t have
05:49 that constant drumbeat of hunger yeah
05:51 well that’s the thing like often also in
05:54 these cultures and religion there are
05:55 some traditional foods that are working
05:57 against you while you’re fasting so you
05:59 are hungry I mean you know I’m I’m Irish
06:02 Catholic background right so we like
06:04 those potatoes mm-hmm and I’m sure
06:08 there’s the things that your family
06:09 would eat that are on the car b-side too
06:12 right
06:12 oh my gosh yes we’re coming up on
06:14 Hanukkah and if I don’t have potato
06:16 latkes God is going to be wroth with me
06:19 zucchini latkes they’re they’re
06:21 wonderful zucchini latkes are almost as
06:23 good
06:27 know that we’re talking about food
06:30 that’s probably the second most popular
06:34 question that I get asked is
06:36 what can I consume during a fast you got
06:41 it okay know what nothing touched on
06:48 this earlier and there are books out
06:52 there on fasting with a lot of talk
06:54 about different little things that you
06:57 can consume and like broth and there’s
07:01 even like jello books out there all
07:03 kinds of craziness but for our purposes
07:06 for the impulsive keto protocols you
07:10 would be sticking to water salt black
07:15 tea maybe green tea but without whitener
07:19 or sweetener and gingerbread spice tea
07:24 as long as you’re putting a sweetener in
07:25 there and block coffee so you know it it
07:31 really depends on the purpose of your
07:32 fast if you’re just looking for that
07:35 insulin holiday and if you want to put
07:37 that a little bit cream in there you can
07:42 but you know the results do diminish
07:45 you’re not getting the full info you’re
07:48 fast but if it makes a difference
07:51 between me fasting or not fasting if I
07:54 have a little splash of cream or a
07:56 little yeah or god forbid a little
07:58 sweetener okay a little sweetener in my
08:00 coffee you know I’m gonna fast and have
08:05 that sweetener and April one of the
08:07 other mods and the impulsive pewter
08:09 group calls it dirty fasting okay I’d
08:14 say dirty fasting counts as fasting it
08:17 does you know and if that’s what what’s
08:21 gonna get you through the night and do
08:22 it um I think phone calls these crutches
08:26 so there are things that you can use and
08:29 eventually if you want to try it without
08:31 you know maybe put those things aside
08:33 for one faster and see how it goes so
08:36 the urban myth I hear about this is 50
08:39 calories as long as you consume less
08:41 than 50 calories it’s basically your
08:43 body doesn’t really care yeah that comes
08:46 from fun you know he’s all about
08:48 compliance right
08:50 so if that’s what’s it what is gonna
08:52 take if maybe putting a splash of cashew
08:55 or almond milk in your coffee during the
08:57 day if that’s what’s gonna keep you
08:59 going overnight and go ahead he’d prefer
09:03 no sweetener at all just because they
09:05 can be really insular no genic but a
09:08 little splash of heavy whipping cream is
09:11 okay by him
09:13 now we’re talking like a thimbleful like
09:16 50 calories worth that’s like one
09:18 tablespoon it’s not a lot yeah I gotta
09:23 say that the insula genic thing I’ve
09:24 read some research on different
09:26 sweeteners and it shows like some
09:27 sweeteners are variants why Oh Jenna
09:29 cuts out some seems not to be influenza
09:31 so it’s very it seems to vary from being
09:35 to being really this seems to be
09:37 something that’s highly individualized
09:38 Oh a lot of them is that sepilok phase
09:42 insulin response right and that’s
09:44 squarely between your ears you know you
09:46 can have an insulin response just from
09:48 thinking about something sweet right
09:51 right right and even some of the
09:53 sweeteners that are not keto friendly
09:57 such as maltitol
09:58 don’t actually create an insulin
10:01 response and in a reasonable timeframe
10:03 in fact what one could argue that it’s
10:06 relatively low because it’s a slow
10:07 trickle yeah in how it comes in even
10:11 though it is it does come in so a you
10:14 have to think about what are we trying
10:16 to accomplish we’re trying to accomplish
10:18 that manipulation of the hormone
10:21 especially this insulin hormone and
10:24 anything that might provoke it is not a
10:28 great choice that’s right Lee when we
10:30 talk about keto and fasting those two
10:33 combined it’s about achieving that
10:35 hormonal advantage otherwise we would
10:38 just do a low calorie low fat diet right
10:43 right but then I know from experience
10:46 everybody knows from experience that
10:48 then you’re riding that that
10:50 rollercoaster where you have this short
10:51 sharp satisfaction from eating and then
10:54 you get hungry again a couple hours
10:56 later exactly so you know this is why we
10:59 do what we do and when it comes to
11:02 fasting there
11:03 good better best right so about the
11:06 insulin anything I have heard Ben say
11:09 that the eggs are very low in terms of
11:14 insulin I genic properties that eating
11:16 an egg is basically it doesn’t provoke
11:18 insulin so can I just egg fast
11:21 [Laughter]
11:26 I would prefer people not to try to mess
11:30 around with any sort of food I mean if
11:32 you’re going to have a little bit of
11:33 liquids okay but there’s there’s protein
11:35 in eggs you know there are certain
11:37 combinations of amino acids that are
11:40 more suitable for keto you know lamb is
11:44 better than then beef and in some cases
11:48 but um no we don’t we don’t do the egg
11:53 fasting that is a calorie restricted
11:56 diet if you’re doing what we’re doing is
11:59 we’re feasting and then we’re fasting if
12:00 you’re doing things like egg fasts and
12:02 you’re eating you know 600 calories of
12:04 eggs every day day after day for like
12:07 five days or however long you do your
12:08 you’re fast for fast I say in quotation
12:12 marks
12:12 that is just caloric restriction and
12:16 that is no good you’re not getting any
12:18 of the advantages that you get from this
12:22 feasting and fasting model and just to
12:25 be clear Jennifer that I don’t remember
12:28 specifically which conversation that was
12:30 but any protein is going to be insulin
12:33 to genex um what do the alanine and a
12:36 couple of the other aminos it but
12:38 compared to a bullet cheerios and if the
12:42 egg is your perfect food because zero
12:45 insulin is not always the goal when
12:47 you’re eating remember insulin is not
12:49 the sugar hormone it’s the nutrient
12:52 availability hormone and protein is a an
12:55 awesome nutrient that you would like to
12:58 signal to your cells to uptake so if
13:01 you’re going to eat protein you would
13:03 want there to be a little insulin to
13:04 drive it into those muscles but again if
13:08 our goal is to create these insulin
13:10 holidays through fasting that periods of
13:13 extremely low insulin and
13:15 it’s gonna be not favorable to keeping
13:18 that insulin at its lowest possible
13:19 levels insulin is your friend you just
13:22 you don’t want that friend to be in your
13:25 house all the time you don’t want
13:26 insulin to be her goal which is what
13:28 happens with insulin resistance
13:30 it’s always there so if you manipulate
13:35 it a little bit by avoiding these things
13:36 during fasting that’s a good thing
13:38 sometimes you just need a break I get it
13:42 I get it
13:43 all right the next question I know we
13:45 get asked a lot is about supplements so
13:47 like I have these iron pills and I are
13:50 these vitamin D and magnesium and
13:54 whatnot and some of them may say take
13:56 with food so what do I do
13:57 dr. Patrick was talking about this on a
14:00 recent podcast now I I have electric who
14:04 talked about Rhonda yeah okay she she’s
14:11 not a medical she’s not a medical doctor
14:13 okay is she not sure path addition oh I
14:16 forget she has a doctor which is the
14:19 doctor III I’m not sure but she was
14:22 talking about avoiding supplements
14:26 during fasting biomedical science by the
14:29 way no she’s has her doctorate in
14:31 biomedical science well there there we
14:33 go but I avoid anything except for salt
14:38 Oh a lot of them they can be difficult
14:43 on on your stomach especially these
14:45 multivitamins I just I skip them what
14:49 about you I’ve been trying to keep up
14:53 with the iron and the vitamin D and the
14:56 magnesium and all that but I’ve been
14:58 taking them before bed in hopes that
15:01 then they’ll like sit around my gut the
15:03 whole night while I’m sleeping and
15:04 that’ll be okay I know I just I skip
15:17 them I mean a lot of the I eat a fairly
15:20 nutrient-dense diet not today today I
15:21 had a lettuce wrapped fast-food burger
15:24 [Laughter]
15:26 [Music]
15:30 I wanted it and I got it so they’re do
15:33 okay you know if I happen to not have my
15:40 supplements two times a week because I
15:43 happen to be fasting those days I don’t
15:45 think that’s such a big deal I mean most
15:50 of the time I’m gonna forget to take
15:51 them anyways like when I was eating
15:53 seven days a week I would at least
15:55 forget to take my supplements two of
15:57 seven days so I I don’t see this as a
16:00 big deal yeah I certainly have a point
16:03 of view on this that most supplements
16:06 are in fact an insurance policy on
16:09 making sure that you’re getting optimal
16:11 levels of nutrition especially on some
16:13 of the more esoteric things that aren’t
16:16 widely available in things like k2 that
16:19 aren’t really in quantity and a
16:21 ketogenic diet and then some of the
16:24 antioxidant support things for sure I
16:28 generally avoid taking supplements when
16:32 I’m fasting because a I can just take
16:34 them later in the day because I’m not
16:37 doing overnight fasts every day I could
16:39 just take them with dinner or lunch or
16:41 whatever
16:41 my next eating window is yeah so it’s
16:44 not a big deal I the thing I want to
16:47 speak to specifically is there are some
16:49 medications that will give you rotten
16:50 gut if you were to take them on an empty
16:53 stomach
16:54 such as metformin which is getting very
16:56 popular among our listeners oh so there
17:00 are two strategies with this number one
17:03 and probably the best one is to talk to
17:07 your doctor about getting metformin XR
17:09 the extended-release form of metformin
17:12 so that you only have to take it once a
17:14 day and that it doesn’t actually
17:16 dissolve in your stomach it’s a slow
17:17 dissolve that kind of trickles in I
17:21 could I’ve read some research that show
17:24 that the XR form is actually more
17:26 effective than the regular metformin
17:27 form because it is delivered to the gut
17:30 for most of its action takes place I
17:33 would I would I haven’t read that
17:35 research but that wouldn’t surprise me
17:36 at all and also it gives you a much more
17:39 consistent dose rather than you know
17:41 it’s got like it
17:42 our half-life and biologically half-life
17:45 is kind of a nonsense way of keeping a
17:48 constant level of medication going which
17:51 is what you would want for a drug like
17:53 metformin you don’t want it to be a Evan
17:56 flow wash like you would with some like
17:58 some antibiotics actually work better
18:01 when they’re spiked and rest but for
18:05 something like metformin you want the
18:06 CIRM levels to come up and stay up so
18:09 that that does not shock me at all to
18:11 hear that so the second approach that I
18:14 would have is to consider what you could
18:18 take that is relatively low calorie
18:20 that’s going to keep things under
18:21 control one of the things that I
18:24 sometimes slide out is chia pudding for
18:26 folks yeah it’s relatively mimosa I mean
18:32 it’s it’s very low calorie you just mix
18:35 it with either water or a little splash
18:38 almond milk or whatever and it turns
18:40 into this jello a gel or whatever and
18:42 it’s just enough to kind of soften it I
18:45 I’ve never really had to go much beyond
18:48 something like that for folks that do
18:50 have medication that’s upsetting to the
18:52 stomach but I I also think that you can
18:55 structure your dosing for most people to
18:58 work around any kind of fasting schedule
19:01 that you want to take yeah I tried the
19:04 chia pudding trick I was getting a bit
19:06 of a sour gut from a supplement I was
19:08 taking when I was fasting 5htp and it
19:12 gave me terrible stomach so and then I
19:19 read afterwards like these people saying
19:21 yeah this will this will give you just a
19:24 really bad bathroom time so I tried the
19:28 the chia I think he used cashew milk and
19:30 mine in it I just had to you know eighth
19:33 of a cup it’s like 10 calories and then
19:37 another 15 for the Chia yeah it’s not a
19:40 it’s not really a huge nutrient intake
19:43 and again our goal is keep the insulin
19:46 as low as possible it’s not going to
19:49 zero even if you’re not doing anything
19:52 so hey you know pick your battles and
19:56 understand when you’re winning the war
19:58 even if things aren’t going as optimally
20:01 as possible now yeah if you’re stalling
20:07 out and you’re diabetic and you know
20:11 you’ve got a complex situation then
20:13 maybe you do need to look at improving a
20:17 more pristine insulin holiday but for
20:20 most people it’s not going to be that
20:22 disruptive okay sorry I know if we’re
20:29 done with the supply another question is
20:30 about this coffee interfering with otaku
20:33 G and I know that we touched on before
20:36 you mentioned around to Patrick and
20:38 she’s done a number of esophageal you
20:40 tube segments and if one of them said
20:42 coffee did and then more recently coffee
20:45 doesn’t so just to be clear what’s
20:48 what’s the final verdict guys coffee
20:50 yeah your name I am on the coffee yeah
20:52 side Coffee does have smidgen of protein
20:57 in it so you know if you’re really
20:59 looking for that once a year sort of
21:02 clean up where you know you want
21:05 everything at with the with the old in
21:06 with the new
21:07 at Apogee fast you might want to avoid
21:10 it for that but if this is something
21:12 you’re doing regularly to resolve
21:14 insulin resistance or to help you in
21:18 your weight loss goals I would say go
21:20 with a coffee I was reading a couple of
21:22 studies an instructor of mine at school
21:25 told me about these studies about coffee
21:28 lengthening telomeres who is that yeah
21:32 oh that’s great I’m gonna live forever
21:38 so I the telomeres are like these little
21:41 little I kind of shoelace little plastic
21:44 against on your DNA strands and when
21:47 those things shortened that’s when you
21:49 start aging oh yeah so I’m gonna I’m
21:51 gonna be young forever mm-hmm
21:55 I’m swelling coffee faster right now yes
21:58 yes coffee coffee itself so ideally you
22:02 know a good better best
22:04 sometimes we need to make these
22:06 compromises Ben was talking about the
22:08 Chia and they you know with certain
22:09 medications sometimes you’ve got to go
22:12 off-script a little bit but water insult
22:16 is what you need now that we’re talking
22:18 about water and salt been dry fasting by
22:23 fasting keeps coming up in the groups I
22:26 know you’ve got some opinions on it you
22:32 know you you I know you do have some
22:35 opinions but I have heard from numerous
22:37 sources that don’t supply any scientific
22:39 references or anything like that that
22:40 dry fasting is the only true fasting but
22:43 if you’re really serious about fasting
22:44 that’s what you do yeah well let me let
22:52 me start off this conversation with a
22:53 couple of things that are worth noting
22:56 the human body does has a pretty
22:59 substantial reservoir of water
23:02 however accessing that water comes at a
23:07 cost and there are a number of religions
23:12 that actually advocate long-term dry
23:14 fasting Ramadan being a great example of
23:17 12-hour dry fasts for millions of people
23:21 for a month they dry fast from sunup to
23:25 sundown that’s right and so far they
23:28 haven’t uh died off doing that practice
23:31 so and it does not appear to be fatal in
23:34 small doses however it’s very stressful
23:38 to your body and it is not optimal in
23:41 most cases and I would not recommend it
23:45 in any case and there are people who do
23:49 advocate this and there’s one group in
23:52 specific whose name I’m not going to
23:54 mention who is hospitalized twice in one
23:57 year and she happens to be a senior
24:02 admin of a dry fasting group you’re in
24:12 the hospital for four days huh what
24:14 happened well I was doing a three day
24:17 drive fast
24:18 and things went south oh okay well
24:21 that’s interesting then about six months
24:24 later oh you’re the hospital again what
24:26 happened well I was doing a dry fast
24:28 okay Karen and I have a very strong
24:32 point of view that impulsive Kido a
24:34 maintain a zero fatalities zero
24:37 hospitalization strategy this would be
24:40 great
24:41 any advice that we give is designed not
24:44 to put you in the hospital this try
24:49 fasting stuff is unnecessary and let’s
24:53 be clear your body is a water engine
24:55 everything that your body does it does
24:58 with water
24:59 that’s why electrolytes are so important
25:02 that’s why most of your body is made up
25:04 of water every nutrient system your
25:08 metabolism is based on fluid transfer
25:10 your brain runs on nutrients that come
25:14 from fluids you start messing around
25:15 through fluids and bad things happen
25:17 really fast there’s just there’s no
25:20 scenario where dry fasting is a good
25:22 idea it’s not better for you it’s just
25:25 stressful if you want to do a no
25:28 nutrient fast fine water salt potassium
25:32 go ahead you you want to do that you can
25:36 do that until you run out of body fat
25:38 and you know vital nutrients which will
25:41 be several weeks with no problems but I
25:46 would not recommend doing that without
25:49 the fluid intake and the electrolyte
25:51 intake you you will get sick and you end
25:53 up in the hospital like miss what
25:55 service yeah good time okay so dry
26:01 fasting is as you would say no bueno
26:03 that’s all there’s just no scenario
26:07 where optimal hydration is not better
26:10 for your body that’s right you are
26:12 stressing some form of your body any
26:15 time that you would hold fluid intake
26:18 adequate fluid intake it it’s the same
26:22 problem if you take too much I mean
26:24 that’s what you know we we’ve done shows
26:26 where we yell about people drinking you
26:28 know a gallon of water a day because
26:30 that’s too much fluid and
26:31 and it causes the same kind of problems
26:33 your your body needs a certain amount of
26:35 fluid and it’s very important not to go
26:38 above or below that yeah my doctor
26:40 actually got on me for that he’s like I
26:42 think you’re drinking too much fluid
26:43 your electrolytes are kind of low you’re
26:45 probably probably doing doing too much
26:47 water
26:47 okay your your body has many many organs
26:52 dedicated to the management of fluid
26:54 within your body and no no need to fight
26:57 against that okay no water only coffee
27:00 got it all right so been mentioned the
27:03 dehydration is a stress on the body
27:06 that’s a bad stress there are good
27:08 stresses on the body like exercise all
27:12 right so I I know we’ve talked about
27:14 this before and Karen I thought that you
27:17 were very clear that zone 2 cardio on
27:20 fasting days but not to really that’s
27:24 really hit it too hard because you don’t
27:25 wanna stress your body too much but then
27:27 we were having this discussion and Ben
27:30 said something else so now I don’t know
27:32 I don’t I don’t think Ben sent something
27:35 else I think it was somebody else who
27:37 said something else okay I don’t know
27:39 who what were you once again Ben and I
27:45 we speak to the iCade group on what is
27:49 optimal what is best what we’ll do the
27:51 least amount of harm right now for most
27:55 people they are in a state of unwellness
27:58 when they’re working with us and they
28:02 these aren’t athletes so they’re they’re
28:06 fasting they’re following a ketogenic
28:08 diet they they’re starting to feel great
28:11 they would like to incorporate some
28:13 exercise and that’s pretty
28:16 self-explanatory on days that you eat
28:19 but I get the question a lot of what
28:22 should i do on my fasting day can I do
28:25 this exercise that exercise and most of
28:28 them are okay I mean I think Ben would
28:31 agree most of our members aren’t at this
28:35 elite athletic level where the amount of
28:38 exercise they can do would be perfectly
28:42 suitable on a fasting day provided they
28:45 not doing this dry fastening nonsense
28:47 right so a lot of people you know they
28:52 are overweight and they’re dealing with
28:55 metabolic syndrome so ideally what they
28:58 would do is this zone to cardio and so
29:03 they would be able to speak in short
29:07 sentences but they’re still breathing
29:09 heavy and sweating so we’re talking you
29:12 know just like aerobics walking very
29:14 briskly it just depends on that person’s
29:17 fitness level what what they’re able to
29:21 do now I have experimented I’ve tried to
29:28 do some resistance work on fasting days
29:31 and it did not go well for me I’ve been
29:33 told me not to but I tried anyway and I
29:38 found that I would get that delayed
29:41 onset muscle soreness mm-hmm it would be
29:45 debilitating for days after like the
29:47 point where it was hard to sit on the
29:49 toilet and I was really hungry
29:55 breaking my fast which is something that
29:57 not that I wasn’t accustomed to it was
29:59 hard to fast it was hard to not overeat
30:01 when I broke my fast and I I was sore
30:05 and just grumpy okay so you know for
30:10 most people just mild exercise something
30:12 that they can do consistently is best so
30:17 so let me ask I was reading on reddit
30:19 about this Martin Burke and lean gains
30:22 protocol which definitely is for like it
30:24 seems more athletic people but I don’t
30:27 know and he was saying like if you do
30:29 have a serious lean gains style workout
30:33 where you’re I don’t know lifting or
30:35 whatever those people do I don’t know
30:37 but then to eat protein heavy
30:41 nutrient-dense whatever kind of meal
30:44 soon afterwards and that that would take
30:47 care of the muscle protein synthesis or
30:51 whatever that is
30:52 so when it comes to resistance training
30:55 specifically like heavy weight lifting
30:58 where we’re not talking about like p90x
31:02 style resistance training we’re talking
31:05 about barbells and plates when you are
31:09 involved in heavy resistance training it
31:12 creates a specific damage to the muscle
31:16 that needs to be repaired
31:18 using you know amino acids protein that
31:24 protein has to come from somewhere now
31:26 you have a certain amount of it just
31:27 kind of always floating around but in an
31:30 ideal world you would want to backfill
31:34 that protein to avoid soreness and
31:38 optimize your recovery the amount of
31:42 stress that is required to do so is
31:45 remarkably small even in the untrained
31:49 so is that what happened to Karen with
31:51 not being able to sit on the toilet
31:53 that’s right she the even though the you
31:57 know if we were to scrutinize that
32:00 workout some may not be impressed with
32:03 her level of volume or difficulty I did
32:07 what I could okay right you did what you
32:11 know if you had compared out to someone
32:13 like me who’s been lifting for a long
32:15 time it would be very different you know
32:17 how many how much weight was moved in a
32:20 given period of time in terms of watts
32:22 or horsepower or whatever yeah the very
32:25 different things
32:26 but Karen maximized her ability to
32:29 stress her muscles and generate
32:32 sufficient tissue damage that her
32:35 recovery required some form of amino
32:38 acids to improve her recovery now we
32:42 know that there’s this window you know
32:46 it’s somewhere around four hours that
32:51 following an exercise like that if you
32:54 can get protein in your muscle bellies
32:56 are especially insulin what’s the
33:00 opposite of resistant sensitive there
33:04 they’re very willing to intake nutrient
33:09 especially protein
33:11 so what that basically means is if you
33:16 do a heavy workout that’s going to make
33:18 your muscle sore you can improve your
33:21 recovery by making sure that you have a
33:23 protein intake yeah within a few hours
33:26 of that exercise okay can you ex can you
33:31 perform the exercise in a fasted state
33:34 yes is it a requirement to refeed within
33:40 45 minutes that exercise no and in fact
33:43 if you don’t the only thing that will
33:46 happen is that you have a sub optimal
33:49 recovery that will based on what what
33:53 we’ve seen in any studies so far when
33:57 you do finally refeed eventually that
34:00 repair process will take place but you
34:03 will suffer between here and there and
34:05 it is it is a sub optimal status of
34:09 rebuild of muscle here’s my advice if
34:16 you’re doing anything that makes your
34:18 muscle sore it’s probably not an awesome
34:23 idea to do that on a day when you’re
34:27 doing a long term fast so like Karen
34:30 does her 36 hour fast she would not want
34:33 to do heavy resistance training on one
34:37 of those days that does not have a feed
34:40 window in it because it will be very
34:45 disappointing house or she will be
34:48 relative to the amount of work that she
34:50 did stairs were not fun the next day
34:54 that’s right now for those of you who
34:59 are on a journey like karen has been
35:01 there are some cheats difficulty that
35:06 one the best cheat that’s out there is
35:09 something called branch chain amino
35:10 acids BCAAs we talked about leucine a
35:14 couple times but one of the amino acids
35:18 that triggers this NPs process is
35:20 leucine if we can trigger the NPS
35:24 it will improve your recovery
35:26 substantially so you can take BCAAs a
35:30 scoop of BCAAs it will be relatively low
35:34 amounts of insulin relative to like a
35:37 way shake that would be a massive spike
35:39 of insulin and it will help your
35:42 recovery probably if I had to guess 90%
35:46 as well is having a steak Wow yeah yeah
35:50 I found it did help I have my BCAAs but
35:55 um if I’m ever inclined to to try this
35:59 resistance training again while fasting
36:01 I have them there I did find it almost
36:03 cut the period of pain and the amount of
36:07 pain that I had in half which was
36:09 awesome m’angil no they do smell like
36:13 dirty socks and tastes terrible but was
36:19 worth it that I was able to you know
36:20 when I woke up in the morning I didn’t
36:22 have to like throw myself and use
36:24 momentum to get down the stairs to get
36:26 my son ready for school I appreciated
36:29 that BCAAs are notorious for having a
36:33 terrible taste and they also don’t
36:35 dissolve in water No
36:37 so there’s a brand that I normally
36:39 recommend nutri cost green apple it is
36:44 uh sufficiently as a sufficient amount
36:47 of citric acid which is alga alkalizing
36:50 which is good for you and it’s tart
36:54 enough to kind of cover the taste of
36:56 socks that BCAM brings to your party and
37:00 then you want to make sure and use a
37:02 shaker jar for that because if you just
37:04 dump a scoop in to a glass of water and
37:07 try and stir it with a spoon it you will
37:09 accomplish nothing
37:10 no they kind of sit on top and release
37:13 their odor into your living room they
37:15 are they repel water and there there’s a
37:20 fun chemistry reason for that but if you
37:22 remember the old mr. Wizards uh like a
37:25 like a podium powder he used to use that
37:28 yellow stuff exactly like that where you
37:31 could just spread you spread it on top
37:32 of water and it just kind of floats yeah
37:34 you guys should be should get a
37:36 commission for these people I really
37:37 want to go out and get my dirty
37:38 sock drink right now well it’s delicious
37:40 mine is cherry lime plus dirty sock I
37:43 know we have some dudes listening to the
37:45 show that are lifting more so than the
37:50 women folk yeah for the women folk
37:53 especially if you’re doing sweatin to
37:55 the oldies unless you’re getting muscle
37:57 soreness if you’re doing light party you
38:01 know you’re taking up a sweat but not
38:03 not really straining your muscles that
38:07 actually doesn’t generate that the
38:09 protein load demand that resistance
38:12 training does and that’s what I want to
38:14 qualify is if you’re not sore the next
38:17 day there’s no need to pursue this
38:22 refeed BCAA stuff you know there are I
38:27 got a shout out to my people out there
38:29 that are where I was at a year and a
38:31 half ago you might be sore after 45
38:35 minutes went to the oldies the first
38:37 couple of weeks the uterus and BCS can
38:40 help for those people but I’m here to
38:43 tell you that if your muscles aren’t
38:45 sore the next day BCAAs will have no
38:49 favorable impact on your recovery this
38:52 is correct so for those those of you
38:55 dudes who are out there hitting the gym
38:58 BCAAs are a great way to bridge that
39:04 compromise between optimal fasting
39:09 windows and an optimal recovery and in
39:13 most cases erring on the side of a
39:16 better recovery is going to be the
39:19 choice you want to make this is good you
39:21 know if you’re working out like a beast
39:23 you need it
39:24 feed the beast that’s right eating sense
39:28 just I want to know you guys mentioned
39:31 that there’s citric acid and this stuff
39:32 does that mean that among the various
39:35 beverages that I can enjoy while fasting
39:38 I can squirt a bunch of lemon juice into
39:41 my water so that’s a much more
39:48 complicated question citric acid malic
39:51 acid
39:52 those kinds of things in general are not
39:56 very disruptive to a fasting process
40:01 however Oh flavorings are often anything
40:09 that is perceived to be lemonade is
40:12 often accompanied with a cephalic
40:15 insulin response are you gonna be
40:17 talking about your lemon issue again
40:19 then how dare you one of the things that
40:25 I had as a kid that was we would have
40:28 sweet lemonade yep I can have the
40:33 world’s most profound insulin response
40:36 from anything that tastes lemonade II
40:39 little darn near pass out if you just
40:41 wave a lemon in front of them
40:43 I gotta get his bizarre all right so
40:50 this is an individual thing if I want
40:52 lemon water I can have it but not you
40:56 there are reasons to have lemon water
40:58 but they don’t have much to do with
41:00 fasting okay much to do with the
41:03 digestion and you know a healthier liver
41:06 and that sort of thing I I’m all keen
41:08 for people in the morning you know
41:11 before they have their coffee to first
41:13 have some warm water with a little lemon
41:16 in it but um I wouldn’t do it on a
41:18 fasting day yeah I in general it you
41:22 want to keep the fasting as low as
41:23 possible and you know Karen and Karen’s
41:26 out there giving people lemon water and
41:28 black coffee I’m much more strict about
41:31 it and you know my own practice because
41:34 if you’re gonna do it do it ya know it
41:37 the lemon water is for days that you are
41:39 feeding it’s not this is this will dis
41:41 ruptor fast yeah I just don’t think it’s
41:45 a great idea but again and if your
41:48 crotch is a choice between fifty
41:50 calories of heavy cream or a squirt of
41:52 lemon
41:53 you can have your lemon yeah really the
41:56 lemon I I like it but once again it has
42:00 nothing to do with fasting it has to do
42:01 with a lot of people that I see that
42:03 have poor digestion
42:05 it helps a little okay once again has to
42:08 do with food
42:09 I’m Joshua I gotcha alright so I haven’t
42:12 know a little battle online about fast
42:16 Eric yeah I’m sorry Rand royale battle
42:18 here yeah
42:20 the brawl for a number of reasons okay
42:24 but the people in my diabetes support
42:26 group a lot of them say fasting is not
42:29 for them because they fast and their
42:32 blood sugar goes right up and they’re
42:35 like so yeah I can’t and they’ve tried
42:36 waiting for 6 hours and it’s still going
42:39 up it’s like 130 140 feet but and then
42:44 as soon as they that goes down so
42:45 they’re like that was bad
42:48 well the reason why it’s going down is
42:50 because when when they aim their
42:52 pancreas starts pumping out some insulin
42:54 right I don’t know why I’m just saying
42:58 and they’re they’re all anti fasting
43:00 their muscles are insulin resistant so
43:03 you know they’re they’re producing this
43:06 blood glucose you see this in the
43:08 morning you wake up and your blood
43:10 glucose is high and then as soon as you
43:13 eat it goes down because you know you
43:15 eat something you produce so much
43:16 insulin and and it goes back down but
43:20 what I always say is yeah you know it’s
43:23 what you need to do is you need to get
43:25 at those muscles to take in that blood
43:29 glucose it’s just floating around in
43:30 your blood instead of feeding your
43:33 muscles like it’s meant to well my
43:36 suggestion would be to walk go for a
43:38 walk don’t don’t eat the people that
43:43 have found you know that are the most
43:45 vocal against this our kind of older
43:48 ladies who you know they probably don’t
43:51 have a lot of muscle tissue in the first
43:53 place and I don’t think they’re out
43:54 there you know doing a lot of exercise
43:56 so that they can you know go ahead and
44:03 walk for 45 minutes yeah so I guess it’s
44:08 gonna continue to be a controversy for
44:09 them because I don’t know if I can
44:11 convince them that that’ll that’ll work
44:12 but I’ll try a lot of it a lot of it is
44:15 the education right high blood glucose
44:18 is
44:18 bad with it right understanding why this
44:21 is happening well and I I do want to
44:24 qualify this that we’re talking about
44:26 unspecified people with unspecified
44:29 levels of metabolic disease indirect
44:31 that’s right there for most people their
44:36 blood Sugar’s might go up to 120 130
44:39 yeah but they’re not really gonna go
44:41 beyond that that’s right and that’s what
44:44 you have to understand is there’s a
44:47 level of glucose toxicity and then
44:50 there’s levels of high glucose there’s a
44:53 huge difference in the amount of glucose
44:56 in your serum that is being generated
44:59 during the process of trying to resolve
45:03 insulin resistance and taking a little
45:07 heat in the form of a hundred and thirty
45:10 blood glucose in exchange for an 18 hour
45:13 window where you’ve taken in no calories
45:16 and made some room at the end and
45:18 improved your insulin sensitivity for
45:21 next time this is a evan flow process
45:26 now both dr. Westman and dr. Fung kind
45:31 of dismiss high blood sugars in their
45:34 patients during fasting and you know any
45:38 kind of ketogenic model because the
45:41 glucose load being seen in the serum is
45:45 a different amount that you know if you
45:49 were to eat a bowl of Cheerios you know
45:51 that’s a couple hundred grams of carbs
45:53 versus what is your your natural livers
45:58 you know hepatic glycogen release of a
46:02 little trickle of sugar that’s building
46:04 up a little bit higher now in both cases
46:06 high glucose is still toxic at a given
46:10 level but you have to think about area
46:14 under the curve as far as how much how
46:17 much carbohydrate is really behind this
46:19 and is that truly toxic to the tissues
46:22 and we can’t say because a we’re not
46:25 doctor Jim because B nobody really knows
46:27 but I know if it were me
46:30 and somebody told me that there was a
46:32 mechanism whereby I could improve my
46:35 insulin sensitivity and I had a
46:39 metabolic disease that is primarily
46:41 caused by insulin resistance
46:43 I’d be very keen to pursue that myself
46:47 and work with my doctor to see what
46:50 right looks like now they also give me a
46:53 lot of shade Bend for this because they
46:55 show me the research showing that
46:57 fasting is going to improve my insulin
47:00 sensitivity more than just sticking the
47:03 Kido
47:04 well there isn’t any yeah and there’s
47:09 not gonna be what why would there be
47:13 well I don’t know I
47:15 because for me fasting plus keto does
47:19 work better than just keto let’s take an
47:22 example like dr. Longo out of California
47:27 for two years he tries to get funding to
47:31 do a study on fasting this is modern
47:34 times this is like 2015 he literally
47:38 cannot get the ethics boards to sign off
47:41 on funded studies human base trials for
47:45 any sort of fasting he was not saying
47:48 we’re gonna fast him for ten days these
47:50 were just reasonable short fast like
47:52 what we talked about in I came 36 hours
47:54 but apparently that is torture according
47:57 to the epic sport yes that that is a war
47:59 crime and unacceptable human torture oh
48:03 my god any ethics boards would not
48:05 approve the funding for it so much so he
48:08 had to invent what he calls the fasting
48:11 mimicking died the FMD which is like 400
48:16 calories of olives and coconut butter or
48:18 something that was so that he could say
48:22 well I’m giving them protein and
48:23 nutrition they’re not going to die from
48:26 a 36 hour fast and that was the only
48:29 kind of study that he could get past the
48:33 these funding ethic Review Board but
48:36 that’s just nonsense right so but that’s
48:40 when you say there’s show me the
48:42 research you go
48:43 we we can’t get any because it’s
48:45 unethical to fast people according to
48:48 current scientific standards for more
48:51 than 12 hours he have you’ve got to have
48:55 your three meals plus two snacks or
48:57 that’s that’s mean
49:00 right so if you’re waiting for the
49:03 science to be there to prove that it’s
49:06 going to make a difference it’s not
49:08 coming at some point you have to take a
49:11 leap of faith or educate yourself enough
49:14 on the biochemistry of your metabolism
49:16 to understand why is it that in a
49:19 diabetic when they fast their insulin
49:24 and glucagon are dysregulated and it
49:27 causes a slightly elevated amount of
49:31 blood glucose to be released by the
49:32 liver and a slightly deranged
49:35 gluconeogenesis process overnight that
49:38 can cause high fasted morning sugars and
49:41 there are medications that can help with
49:43 that like metformin they do a fantastic
49:45 job of taming that beast but those are
49:50 medical conditions that are going to be
49:52 unique to individuals and I’m hesitant
49:54 to make a broad recommendation because
49:58 there are classes of diabetics who have
50:01 burned out their beta cells and
50:03 physically don’t make enough insulin and
50:06 require exogenous insulin or their blood
50:09 Sugar’s will rise to toxic levels I I
50:11 can’t guarantee your standard run in the
50:15 middle type two diabetics blood sugar is
50:17 not gonna go over 130 on a you know a
50:21 ketogenic diet with occasional 18 hour
50:24 fast I can say that generically but I
50:28 can’t say that about a person because a
50:30 person might have deranged beta cells
50:33 they may their liver might be all jacked
50:35 up I don’t know I can’t say your average
50:39 person without having this type 1.5
50:42 diabetes they can’t they could expect to
50:45 see some elevated blood glucose levels
50:47 but slightly elevated yeah you know they
50:51 you we just don’t we just don’t know and
50:54 there’s never going to be science about
50:55 it and everybody
50:57 you know the most likely diabetics to be
51:00 in that category of having insulin
51:02 insufficiency is your old lady who’s
51:04 been diabetic for 30 years yeah so she
51:07 has to be cautious she should be working
51:09 with her doctor and gauging her
51:11 medication and having this open dialogue
51:13 about fasting and diet and exercise sure
51:16 I think that’s that that’s the real
51:19 challenges it sounds like those are some
51:20 of the vocal opponents to this
51:23 philosophy you go great how’s your beta
51:26 cells thanks for that they can actually
51:29 figure that out okay I had no idea yeah
51:33 it’s called a CPAP is it is that right
51:37 okay yeah you can actually measure how
51:44 much insulin is being made by your body
51:47 has to see you have died test okay it
51:49 has to do with this peptide that holds
51:54 the insulin molecules together so they
51:56 can actually measure how much insulin
51:58 like in a 24-hour period your pancreas
52:01 actually made I can do that that’d be
52:04 interesting to find out well it’s only
52:06 interesting if you have derangement
52:08 otherwise it’s not interesting at all
52:10 you know history of type 2 diabetes and
52:14 I think that I’m pretty good now what
52:15 you really want see 5.0 and that’s on a
52:20 ketogenic diet oh yes and are you taking
52:25 any diabetes medication nope
52:27 then the c-peptide test is gonna show
52:29 that it’s normal well that would be
52:32 lovely yes you have normal levels of
52:34 insulin otherwise you’re anyone’s he
52:36 wouldn’t be 5.0 she just wants
52:38 verification so she can like wave her
52:40 results over her head yeah Doris the 67
52:44 year-old is telling her the fasting is
52:45 bad exactly but if you have an if you
52:48 have a 7.8 a 1 C and you’ve been
52:52 ketogenic for six months that’s a
52:54 problem we have concerns and questions
52:59 and that’s it that’s the thing that’s
53:01 why that’s what’s so tough about doing a
53:03 radio show like this is everybody’s got
53:06 their own deal right talking about an
53:08 individual versus talking about a
53:10 Jeanette
53:10 situation is very difficult link here
53:13 and I can a tiptoe through the tulips on
53:15 some of these medical conditions where
53:16 we know there is a spectrum on this
53:19 stuff and there there are people who
53:21 most certainly have insulin and
53:23 sufficiency and
53:23 and will never be able to completely
53:26 divorce themselves from insulin therapy
53:28 and that’s a bummer for them so
53:32 definitely it is the case that some
53:33 people with diabetes it’s not like
53:35 fasting is gonna cure everybody there’s
53:37 people that it’s not there’s people
53:39 that’s right it will help a little bit
53:40 but maybe not so much right people helps
53:43 all right now another another issue they
53:46 got that they have been throwing in my
53:48 face is recent post on this Verta health
53:54 calm run by all these doctors in Ebola I
53:57 don’t know these other people saying
54:00 that fasting there hasn’t been enough
54:03 research on fasting but it results in
54:06 lean body mass loss and fasting too
54:10 often or for too long is is bad here
54:14 they conclude this whole lengthy blog
54:16 post saying rather than pursue a cute
54:18 and dramatic weight loss dramatic weight
54:21 loss by fasting even if it’s just
54:23 intermittent it’s better to take the
54:25 long-term view and avoid doing things
54:26 that can compromise your lean tissue I
54:30 mean they’re part of the purpose of
54:34 fasting is to break down these tissues
54:36 so I I don’t why would you want to keep
54:39 them you know you’re breaking down old
54:43 this is your call your body’s constantly
54:45 doing this so I I don’t see there is no
54:48 evidence that you know doing the type of
54:50 fasting that we talked about will result
54:53 in the loss of lean body mass if it’s
54:55 done correctly what would result the
54:58 loss with some lean body mass right the
54:59 link daddy methadone Mike but exactly
55:02 and then it comes back once you refeed
55:05 so it’s it’s out with the old and with a
55:08 nail
55:08 hey I’ve never quite understood this
55:11 argument you need to be constantly
55:13 building lean body mass that’s not how
55:15 your body works that’s not how any of
55:17 this works so you know yeah
55:23 sure you
55:24 with the overnight fasting some of the
55:26 weight that’s lost is not bad but you
55:32 gain it back so you know add another
55:36 question that we get is about weight you
55:38 know what can I expect to lose what can
55:40 I expect you regain well when I have a
55:42 full day of fasting I might lose a pound
55:44 and a half but only at the next day once
55:48 I refeed a pound of that will come back
55:51 because I’m rebuilding my tissues I am
55:55 resupplying my hydration but that half a
55:59 pound over the two days that would be
56:04 mostly fat loss I can expect half a
56:07 pound over over what a day or two days
56:10 the most the most you’re gonna lose with
56:12 fat is a half a pound today what if I’m
56:15 a giant six foot and a half tall guy can
56:19 I lose more maybe you know fat loss has
56:27 to do with calories but it also has to
56:29 do with hormones has to do with your
56:31 activity level and there’s so many
56:34 different variables yeah yeah let me
56:39 back up a second Jennifer and just speak
56:42 directly to the thief any comment
56:44 because he’s he’s on famously on record
56:47 on the low-carb down under and you know
56:50 people love to throw fun questions at
56:53 him because he does not like fasting and
56:58 he he didn’t dodge the question but he
57:02 answered it obliquely by saying there’s
57:04 insufficient medical evidence at this
57:07 time and and that’s the truth we we
57:10 don’t know that you’re not I can’t sit
57:15 here and say exactly what’s gonna happen
57:17 but here’s what I can say we know that
57:21 thousands of people successfully lose
57:24 weight even if we were just narrow the
57:26 scope we know just at the IDM clinic
57:28 alone your lungs got a thousand patients
57:31 doing this none of them are getting sick
57:35 or being diagnosed with some
57:38 lean muscle mass deficiency it just
57:42 doesn’t happen but you can also kind of
57:45 rationalize it this way if you’re 400
57:48 pounds you are at an acute medical
57:53 situation if you have brain cancer
57:57 they’re gonna take radiation and stick
58:00 it in your brain and try and kill off
58:02 the tumor that is a radical medical
58:06 intervention do you think that it’s good
58:08 for you to have radiation pointed at
58:10 your brain I’m gonna go with no no never
58:13 that intervention has a likelihood of an
58:20 outcome that is more favorable than if
58:23 you did not have the intervention is the
58:27 same way with this fasting especially
58:30 for someone with metabolic disease like
58:32 diabetes we know that diabetes is a
58:34 progressive degenerative disease that
58:38 will put you in your grave it will it
58:40 will make you crippled blind you lose
58:44 the sensitivity in your extremities and
58:46 you will die younger than you would if
58:48 you weren’t diabetic that is not a
58:50 question that is a 100% guaranteed
58:53 certainty we know that because there are
58:55 millions of people who are diabetics who
58:56 have gone down this road and medicine
58:59 cannot reverse a situation however it
59:04 does seem like fasting and ketogenic
59:07 diet does reverse this condition or at
59:11 least puts it in full remission if given
59:15 the option of losing a little lean body
59:17 mass and extending your life you know in
59:22 such a way that you’re not going to lose
59:24 your eyesight and you’re gonna be able
59:25 to feel things when you stub your toe
59:28 that’s not funny Karen these people that
59:37 diabetics lose their toes because they
59:39 stubbed their toe get an infection and
59:42 can’t feel it and it gets bad enough
59:44 that it must be amputated
59:48 it’s that is a real deal
59:51 diabetic problem and that’s why that
59:54 this is the life of a diabetic so I if
59:56 I’m describing a situation like that to
59:58 you and I go here’s I gotta do skip a
60:01 few meals lose a little weight you’ll be
60:03 fine
60:04 pick only these foods is that a
60:08 reasonable intervention versus the
60:11 alternative is there enough science –
60:15 absolutely
60:16 ironclad prove this not yet but it’s
60:20 coming and it’s gaining more and more
60:22 steam as time goes on as we’re learning
60:25 that low-carb diets resolve the problem
60:29 better than current a.da advice which is
60:32 insulin therapy that is progressive and
60:34 degenerative and irreversible III
60:38 certainly love the effect on my body of
60:41 fasting so another issue that they bring
60:45 up if I may is you park that for a
60:49 second Finney has a point of view that
60:53 you do not need to fast in order to lose
60:56 weight and we agree however we’ve also
61:02 found that you can fast without
61:05 consequences that appear to be permanent
61:08 or detrimental enough to be noteworthy
61:11 and that goes okay so that does
61:17 profoundly accelerate your progress what
61:21 is more likely for someone who’s got a
61:23 hundred pounds to lose or sixty pounds
61:26 to lose if you’re trying to keep someone
61:29 engaged and off this path that is
61:33 progressive and degenerative what’s
61:36 gonna do better for them something that
61:38 generates big results and you know
61:41 noteworthy results as far as compliance
61:44 diet is the most difficult medical
61:47 intervention that you can make as a
61:49 doctor because patient compliance is
61:52 horrible even weight loss surgery
61:55 recidivism is almost 80% that’s a fancy
61:58 way of saying 80% of the people to get
62:00 weight-loss surgery either gain all the
62:02 way back
62:03 or at least most of it wow those are
62:07 people that have radical body
62:09 modification surgery that is lifelong
62:13 and irreversible and still can’t
62:16 overcome it that is a huge undertaking
62:21 so if any medically correct yeah
62:25 probably I don’t know but here’s what I
62:28 can tell you if I can have somebody
62:31 consistently losing a pound a week and
62:33 I’m not making them an emotional basket
62:36 case by having them perform Viking
62:39 heroic fasts of you know five to seven
62:42 days but just skipping a few meals here
62:45 and there making food selection of low
62:48 carb foods will they end up losing a lot
62:52 of weight at a reasonable pace that will
62:55 keep them engaged and motivated to
62:57 continue their journey we have found
63:00 that that recidivism is not zero it’s
63:05 not a hundred percent either because
63:07 people have stuff I mean we we all have
63:10 issues we there are a lot of popular
63:12 folks in in the low-carb diet world who
63:17 have very public and you know public
63:21 issues with this it’s it’s a it’s out
63:24 there it’s a real deal problem we
63:26 believe that this impulsive keto model
63:29 is a nutritional model that includes a
63:33 high level of easy compliance because
63:37 we’re not asking you to do anything too
63:39 crazy if any wants to put his
63:43 methodology up against a model like that
63:46 I just don’t know that he would have the
63:50 leg to stand on which is why he’s very
63:52 measured in his critiques of that kind
63:56 of approach what’s the current waiting
63:59 list at the IDM Karen last I heard it
64:02 was like six months it’s yeah it’s six
64:04 months yeah there’s a wait there’s a
64:07 line outside the door a funk clinic that
64:12 is six months long and all he’s going to
64:15 do is tell them not to eat
64:21 that’s you people wait six months for
64:24 the nice guy with the glasses to say hey
64:26 why don’t you skip a few meals buddy
64:29 it’s it’s not rocket science this is not
64:33 I so when when somebody tells me oh this
64:38 is bad for you’re gonna lose lean muscle
64:39 mass I go first up how do you know that
64:42 and B if a 400-pound person is going to
64:45 lose me lean muscle mass let’s think
64:47 about that I know where I lost mine
64:49 getting out of bed at 400 pounds is a
64:54 400 pound deadlift yep that is hardcore
64:58 care Karen was able to deadlift a lot
65:01 more weight when she was getting out of
65:03 bed then she probably can right now if I
65:05 put a barbell in her hands
65:07 yeah you know why I worked on my feet
65:09 and I was was a makeup artist I had a
65:12 very successful clientele list and I was
65:18 on my feet and you know my the amount of
65:21 muscle on my calves that was required
65:24 just oh hold myself up at you know 310
65:28 pounds mm-hmm was substantial I don’t
65:31 need that as much so you know if I’m
65:33 losing a little bit off of off my calves
65:36 I don’t see what the big deal is okay
65:40 okay it’s done required that’s kind of
65:44 my take on on Phineas Ponce to that it
65:47 I’m not prepared to argue with dr. Finny
65:50 clinically let’s be clear and that that
65:53 that is a ball game that I would lose he
65:58 is not wrong but I will certainly go toe
66:02 to toe with him if he wants to talk
66:04 about compliance rates that’s right
66:06 my my weight works his way works if he
66:11 can get people to do it we for whatever
66:13 reason see pretty good rates we really
66:17 do that’s all that’s the only thing I
66:20 can stand on we have good rates are it
66:23 works for a lot of our people then work
66:25 for everybody but nothing does true not
66:29 yet
66:30 all right I’m into that all right so
66:33 guys we’re getting a little tight on
66:34 time Jennifer I cut you off you had a
66:35 follow-up question well I did I wanted
66:37 to ask about the last objection that my
66:40 friends raised us all fasting business
66:42 is that you know the gut biome it’s very
66:44 important your gut health is important
66:46 and fasting doesn’t feed the gut biome
66:48 so you’re you’re hurting your gut health
66:52 well haha well you know um Irie feed my
66:58 gut when I eat I take my probiotics they
67:01 eat fermented foods we’re not talking
67:05 about crazy long fasts in our groups
67:07 it’s up to 48 hours right so you don’t
67:10 need to be constantly feeding your gut
67:11 do you Ben
67:14 the science is not clear on this Karen
67:17 we know that if you were to take a you
67:23 know they’ve done this with the animals
67:25 right they’ll feed the animal they’ll
67:27 take a biopsy you know punch biopsy to
67:31 sample the biome and then feed the
67:34 animal and then an hour later take
67:36 another biopsy those biomes will have
67:39 changed just in that hour wow this is a
67:44 dynamic environment do we know for sure
67:49 that good actors versus bad actors are
67:54 more stable we we believe so and there’s
68:00 a really easy way of telling what’s that
68:03 your pooper always back to poop with you
68:09 it’s always about the poop people here
68:12 fast intermittently have regular normal
68:18 non stinky bowel movements if their gut
68:24 biome was disrupted it would be
68:26 sulfurous it would be inconsistent in
68:30 its velocity in texture things happen
68:38 unfavorably when your gut is not healthy
68:41 yeah
68:42 Fuhrman
68:43 versus beautification is another great
68:47 tell on how healthy your gut biome is
68:50 here well it this is you know eat a
68:54 whole bunch of chicken wings say you
68:56 know that there have been movies where
68:57 you know was it one of the Avengers
69:00 movies is Deadpool goes old great I’m
69:02 stuck in an elevator with a bunch of
69:04 guys on a high-protein diet there’s a
69:07 reason for that because if you eat a
69:10 whole lot of protein it’s going to fur
69:12 it’s gonna putrified rather than ferment
69:15 yeah and you will have stinky gas and
69:18 other stinky Thanks okay so let me ask
69:22 you about the feeding the good thing you
69:24 mentioned earlier that it was okay to
69:25 have a little bit of chia pudding
69:27 because it was mostly fiber what about
69:29 like other kinds of like could I take
69:31 like a fiber supplement like a little
69:32 glucomannan or oat fiber or something
69:34 like that zero calories just there’s all
69:37 the little in water or something would
69:38 that help would that be good under the
69:40 premise of trying to feed the gut biome
69:42 right right as we sort of talked about
69:46 in the gut health show what are you
69:48 feeding exactly good actors or bad
69:53 actors I don’t know I don’t know either
69:55 oh I know what he does hmm as for me I
70:01 don’t recommend that I I have fooled
70:05 around potatos starts quite a bit i’ve
70:08 not fooled around with oat fiber but
70:11 potato starch i have okay so should i
70:15 like it is it good well it it has the
70:20 intended effect of feeding jumping you
70:25 you will have evidence that you have fed
70:29 something okay in the way of the north
70:32 wind that blows actually what my kid my
70:38 kid is doing a science project right now
70:40 on which prebiotic is most effective at
70:45 feeding the probiotic that we use it
70:48 being the way that we’re measuring it is
70:50 with a bubble meter
70:55 that’s science right there right but
71:00 that’s that’s what happens in your gut
71:01 right I I will agree that there are
71:05 concerns especially with long-term
71:07 fasting / gut biome disruption yeah dr.
71:11 Fung a co-author on one of those books
71:13 Jimmy Moore is uh he he celebrates that
71:18 his long dirty fasts caused a profound
71:23 diarrhea and other problems when he
71:27 finally does refeed with you know some
71:30 bowl or sauerkraut and a bunch of
71:32 chicken wings or whatever he does yeah
71:34 and I I worry a little bit about what
71:39 would happen on longer fasts I I don’t
71:42 know the correct answer
71:43 I do recommend anybody doing a longer
71:45 fast take probiotics on the refeed to
71:49 make sure that they repopulate with good
71:53 actor bugs as best as you can I don’t
71:58 know Jimmy is having a whole bunch of
71:59 computer during his fast so he should be
72:01 well that’s true he was feeding
72:03 something eating something so you don’t
72:05 you just don’t know what you’re feeding
72:06 you could be feeding the Mogwai or you
72:08 could be feeding the gremlin if he’s
72:10 having a whole lot of issues when he
72:12 breaks the fast they come bücher must
72:14 not be helping that much
72:15 well again evidence of concerns right it
72:21 you asked me if the long fast is good
72:23 for your health I want to know what’s
72:25 going on downstairs evaluate your gut
72:30 health with what transpires I have
72:34 really no problems with the shorter-term
72:37 fasting that we did I’ve done some
72:39 experimenting on myself with longer
72:41 fasting up to about 90 to 100 hours and
72:46 I did have a disruption in my gut biome
72:49 with me it wasn’t the same problems that
72:52 that Ben was describing I had issues
72:57 with my bowel just stopping there was a
72:59 motility issue with me and easily
73:03 resolved with those transient probiotics
73:07 still a sign that something isn’t great
73:09 then right yeah exactly
73:11 so with me that just I had to weigh risk
73:16 and reward
73:16 I was ia how was I doing with you know a
73:20 four day fast and then a four day refeed
73:23 or for me what I found better was a day
73:28 on a day off a day on a day off a day on
73:30 a day off and I just I had that all the
73:33 reward but none of this issues with with
73:36 disruption that got by on experience I
73:39 tried a five-day fast just to see if I
73:41 could and it was easy in terms of like
73:43 my mental state and I felt great but
73:46 yeah after I broke it I did have liquid
73:49 issues issues yes yeah with me it’s
73:52 always the opposite so when we first
73:55 started the impulsive keto group we
73:57 actually had aligned ourselves a little
74:00 bit closer with dr. Fung directly by
74:02 name one of the reasons that we started
74:06 to drift away from that is the fact that
74:08 we know that these longer-term fast can
74:11 be disruptive and Fung is happy to
74:14 advocate them and I’m not here to say
74:16 that they’re bad and let me be clear
74:18 yeah if you want to do a five-day fast
74:21 go ahead at your own risk
74:25 right yeah you need to manage your
74:26 electrolytes in a manager gut biome
74:28 Karen and I have both experienced and
74:31 sounds like Jennifer as well
74:34 consequences it is our hope that any
74:38 advice that we give you has minimized
74:41 the consequences or that we can prepare
74:43 you for them I cannot prepare you for
74:46 what is gonna happen after a 7 day fast
74:50 Fung even has a term for it he calls
74:52 that the refeed mudslide which I think
74:54 would describe what Jennifer went
74:56 through yeah so it is that you know with
74:59 people doing I think he advocates five
75:02 day five to seven day five that’s right
75:04 but anything over that you know you need
75:06 you need your electrolytes monitored and
75:08 everything that’s through her doctor but
75:10 um yeah I mean it’s such a common issue
75:14 that he has he’s got a term for it it’s
75:16 got a cute term to help you skate what’s
75:19 really a
75:21 disrupted gut biome issue I’m sticking
75:24 with the 48 hours from here on out yeah
75:26 so I guess if that answers your question
75:29 sideways it it does seem like on paper
75:32 that you could provide something that
75:36 would be digested primarily in the gut
75:38 that would be of limited disruption to
75:41 insulin status especially something like
75:44 potato starch or you know inulin or
75:48 something like that that that is
75:50 primarily gonna stay and be digested in
75:54 the gut I am convinced inulin only feeds
75:57 bad actors in me it’s feeding something
76:05 in the evidence is there that it’s not
76:07 good point being that the inulin is
76:11 getting burned in yeah yeah and is that
76:14 good for you or is it worth it is it
76:17 feeding the right things I don’t know in
76:20 my personal experience no and my guess
76:24 would be I don’t think it’s a great plan
76:27 to try and go down that road now if you
76:32 want to do a little self experimentation
76:33 go right ahead
76:34 it’s not gonna hurt you it just may give
76:38 you gas or would you say the mud slot
76:42 refeed much like a mudslide you know
76:46 that that’s really all you’re risking
76:48 you’re not gonna develop intestinal
76:50 cancer by getting some potato starch
76:53 during a fast it’s alienate friends and
76:56 family that’s right free to bring a
77:00 change of shorts in your briefcase and
77:01 give it a shot okay don’t plan it for a
77:05 day that you know you’re inviting the
77:07 boss over for dinner don’t break your
77:10 fast lady’s week we ought to leave it
77:18 there okay we’re coming up on time yeah
77:22 yep hopefully this addressed some of
77:25 those lingering fasting questions
77:27 Jennifer I know you had a couple more on
77:29 your list that we’ll try and sneak in
77:31 into a future show
77:34 sorry no time maybe you know this might
77:38 have actually added to some of my
77:39 questions this whole discussion so there
77:44 shows that’s all I’m saying it is an
77:47 interesting thing because a lot of what
77:50 you hear is talking about is personal
77:52 experience anecdotal experience clinical
77:55 evidence yeah not science this stuff
77:58 does not have scientific study behind it
78:02 it just doesn’t they tortured write it
78:06 the last study we have on a decent fast
78:08 is the Becca Hill study that was like
78:11 back in the 70s when he he managed to
78:13 talk a bunch of graduate students into
78:15 fasting for a very long period of time
78:17 and people been deriving conclusions
78:21 based on what was you know one study
78:26 from a very small population of fit
78:29 college kids that’s not the same thing
78:32 as you know 43 year old lady who’s at
78:36 diabetes for 20 years thanks thanks to
78:39 me it’s a different deal so thanks
78:44 everybody for tuning in to this fasting
78:47 follow-up question show hopefully we
78:49 answered a few more of the fasting
78:52 questions that explored some of the
78:53 corners my take-home message for you is
78:56 it don’t overthink this and don’t get
78:59 cute to just keep things simple you want
79:03 to have you know some caffeine in the
79:05 morning have some tea or coffee try and
79:08 have it black if you need a little bit
79:10 of sweetener keep it very low-calorie
79:11 like sucralose or ether tall stevia if
79:15 you need a little creamer because you
79:16 can’t tolerate coffee
79:18 go ahead a splash isn’t gonna kill you
79:20 but consider it a crutch and then also
79:22 consider it if that’s part of your
79:26 long-term goal that you need to have
79:28 coffee in the morning is that the is
79:30 that the status of an optimal human
79:32 being that you need coffee in the
79:34 morning and if it is why are you
79:36 drinking coffee if you don’t like the
79:38 taste of it maybe there’s other things
79:40 that have caffeine um including caffeine
79:42 pills that may get you where you need to
79:44 be without
79:46 the provocation of the calories so you
79:51 don’t need to flavor your coffee is what
79:53 you’re saying I am saying that coffee is
79:55 a flavor character I will not hear
79:59 anyone say different that’s right all
80:03 right folks let’s put a pin in it no one
80:09 in this podcast is a provider of care
80:11 and our discussion is it’s not
80:15 [Music]
80:19 especially the impact directly the
80:22 prescribing doctor on my ability during
80:24 meditation before
80:25 professional birth or passenger
80:27 mini-vacations unknown even compatible
80:29 on the vast amount of pre-shave Mendoza
80:35 you
80:38 [Music]