Ben, Karen and Jenn dig into 4 different ketogenic diet models and discuss how they developed and who should follow each sort. Does unlimited fat keto work for some people? Do calories matter? Who should eat higher protein? Should you limit fat or not? Should Jenn have had so much brisket last night? Who is this Bacon Dan fellow? Continues in part 2. A transcript is available on Youtube, thanks Google!

Our show is an audio show in the long form, a conversation, not a clickbait soundbite. We recommend you use a podcast player on your phone to listen while driving or doing work around the house. Links below to subscribe in your favorite podcast player.

Google Play:

If you would like some expert help getting started or troubleshooting your unique situation, consider booking a consulting call with Ben

Show notes:

0:00 Intro to ep & co-host bios — Ben & Jenn welcome back Karen!
4:00 Four schools of keto thought: everyone agrees limit carbs, and then: 1) eat 80-90% fat and more if you want, 2) eat fat to satiety but don’t go crazy, 3) eat limited fat and eat protein to satiety 4) optimal nutrient density, moderate both fat and protein
8:00 Jenn admits to eating a ridiculous amount of brisket last night and having high glucose as a result
9:00 Karen started out following the ‘eat all the fat’ model to start but progressed to nutrient density
10:30 Jenn went from calorie counting to calorie-counting keto to Impulsive Keto
12:00 Ben started with traditional Atkins which started out with induction phase and ate 3000 cals/day and still lost weight
17:00 Nuts have carbs, some more than others – legumes, drupes
19:00 Why do some people say high fat and hence high ketones are important? Epilepsy, brain injuries
22:30 How high ketones affect the brain
28:30 Nutritional ketosis vs therapeutic ketosis: when do calories matter? Karen was called a CICOpath
31:00 We examine the logic behind ‘eat all the fat’ and see when it makes sense to eat unlimited fat, and when it doesn’t
37:00 Unlimited fat is a great approach for new people, sick people and for people struggling with compliance.. but fundamentally it’s about limiting carbs. The IK model is best for metabolic issues, with moderate portions of protein
41:30 Bacon Dan! Eat nothing but bacon for one month – it works, but then you gotta change it up. Why does it work and why does it stop working?
48:00 If MOAR FAT stops working and natural appetite and satiety don’t do the job on their own… cont’d in part 2



Autogenerated thanks to the good folks at YouTube!

00:00 this podcast was brought to you by
00:01 impulsive keto coaching well that’s just
00:03 me Ben if you’d like to get on the phone
00:05 and spend an hour with me talking about
00:07 your unique situation
00:09 visit impulsive keto comm and click on
00:12 get coached for more information well
00:23 hello and welcome to another edition of
00:25 the impulsive keto cash I’m your host
00:27 Ben McDonald today’s episode 28 more fat
00:31 we’re gonna be getting into the
00:33 nitty-gritty on why there’s so much
00:35 debate about the ketogenic diet model
00:37 there are folks out there saying butter
00:39 your coffee there are folks out there
00:41 eating fat bombs and other folks like us
00:44 saying eat salads and chicken well what
00:47 are the differences where do those
00:49 what’s the origin of that what we’re
00:51 gonna get into that and talk a little
00:52 bit about our point of view maybe give
00:55 you a little more perspective on other
00:56 folks to help me have that conversation
00:59 in 2016 weighing over 300 pounds autism
01:04 mom Karen received the news that she was
01:06 progressing towards diabetes with an a1c
01:09 of 6.2 in a looming arrhythmia she hit
01:12 the internet in search of a solution to
01:14 her progressive disease states today
01:17 through the ketogenic diet and
01:18 intermittent fasting she’s down 120
01:21 pounds her a 1 C dropped from 6.2 to an
01:24 optimal 4.8 giving back to others she is
01:27 preparing to sit for the nutrition board
01:29 exams and will begin her practice this
01:32 summer Karen leads the team of
01:35 enthusiastic knowledgeable volunteers at
01:37 the impulsive keto Network along with
01:39 Diane Cummins inspiring others to
01:41 achieve their health and wellness goals
01:43 through simple food selection and meal
01:45 timing Karen are you with us I’m right
01:48 here how you doing welcome back after
01:51 quite a hiatus well I’ve been busy
01:54 preparing for those those board exams
01:56 don’t tell me problems I got that coming
01:58 up in March I’m super excited we’re glad
02:01 to have you back to give your point of
02:04 view from the great white north I’m glad
02:07 to be here
02:08 Jenn is a former large lass who was
02:11 jolly and content until
02:13 type 2 diabetes in kidney disease she
02:16 went fully ketogenic and lost 100 pounds
02:19 to reclaim her health she was able to
02:21 stop all prescription medication
02:23 dropping her a1c from twelve point one
02:26 to four point six and is now two years
02:29 into maintaining that healthy weight and
02:31 glucose control she’s a former Purdue
02:34 math professor and currently an IT
02:36 manager in the insurance industry a
02:38 fiery red headed volunteer mod for the
02:40 impulsive Kido of Facebook groups she
02:42 spends a lot of her free time helping
02:44 others follow the path that works so
02:46 well for her Jen are you online check
02:49 check one two yeah all right
02:52 unfortunately we’re not going to get as
02:54 much air time as we have these past few
02:55 shows Karen Karen
02:58 the hot wind that blows as joined us I’m
03:02 here and ready to make my thoughts heard
03:04 I I was listening to your podcast that
03:08 you recorded without man I don’t know
03:10 Ben you’re getting a little there’s a
03:14 little bit of sexism going on in here
03:15 how dare you very glad to have you back
03:21 Karen Cator you know woman power we can
03:24 team up oh my goodness
03:26 what is going on with this you guys
03:27 can’t keep teaming up on me two on one
03:33 I’m good at that
03:35 I have practice all right well I thought
03:41 today we could spend a little bit of
03:42 time talking about more fat more the the
03:49 sirens call of the ketogenic diet is the
03:52 butter draped bacon covered cheeseburger
03:56 yeah that’s right you eat more fat to
04:01 lose more fat that’s right butter and
04:03 bacon and cheese well let’s talk about
04:07 the state of the ketogenic diet theory
04:11 there’s really four schools of thought
04:15 you’ve got the all the fat you want to
04:18 eat group and a lot of this stems from
04:22 people who have a point of view that
04:25 calories don’t matter
04:27 the only thing that matters is being in
04:28 the ketogenic metabolic state where your
04:31 body is using fat as fuel and even in a
04:34 calorie surplus nutritionally you will
04:37 still use plenty of body fat in the
04:41 times that you’re not eating the
04:43 hormonal advantage absolutely that the
04:47 next group would be a high fat to
04:50 satiety group now these are the groups
04:53 that have fat macros they have hard
04:56 limits but they’re also saying the fat
04:59 is going to provide satiety for you so
05:02 it’s important to get this amount of fat
05:06 in so they treat their fat macro as a
05:08 minimum so you need to at least achieve
05:12 your 120 grams of fat and these are
05:15 folks that we see posting sometimes
05:17 it’ll say I’m having trouble getting on
05:19 my fat end so I’m eating a buttered
05:21 avocado or I butter my portman answer
05:24 you know it’s late and I’ve already hit
05:27 my protein macro but I still need to hit
05:30 my fat macro what do I do
05:31 yes it’s a terrible problem to have it’s
05:35 definitely a school of thought and in
05:39 many cases I that one’s kind of the the
05:42 most strange one to defend because there
05:46 isn’t a lot of science around the
05:49 satiety features of fat but we’ll get
05:51 into that in a minute
05:52 yeah the next class of ketogenic diet
05:57 theory is this high protein to satiety
06:00 and this is going to be the you know the
06:03 models that your your folks like keto
06:05 gains these zero carb folks like we
06:08 talked about a couple weeks ago protein
06:11 is clearly a primary driver of satiety
06:15 if you eat a lot of protein you will
06:17 feel full so they have a point of view
06:21 that calories generally do matter but
06:25 that they’re going to lean heavy on the
06:28 protein macro because of the fact that
06:31 it’s energy dense at much less so than
06:35 fat so you can eat a lot more protein by
06:37 volume than fat
06:38 and receive a lot less calories now
06:41 that’s generally favorable if you’re
06:42 trying to lose weight but then you also
06:44 have to deal with the fact that fat is
06:46 not insulin a genic whereas when you eat
06:50 protein a about 50% of the the protein
06:54 does stimulate some form of insulin
06:57 release that can be problematic
06:59 especially in the obese and it can
07:01 actually be a deranged physiology not
07:03 just problematic well it’s also
07:06 problematic is the cat pee smell well
07:08 there’s certainly some interesting
07:11 corners to explore there around nitrogen
07:13 load when you start getting on the high
07:16 end of that I will say that most of
07:19 these groups a zero carb folks are their
07:21 own little deal but most of these groups
07:24 and you know if used Akito against macro
07:26 calculator if the protein macro that it
07:29 kicks out is not that much different
07:30 than ours it really is
07:32 but then the advice of well that’s a
07:36 minimum yeah not a target that’s where
07:40 it gets interesting of well sure you can
07:42 have 60 70 grams of protein in a single
07:46 sitting
07:47 no problem it’ll be fine even though
07:49 you’re diabetic that’s that’s where the
07:52 conversation gets a little twisting I
07:54 just want that range myself just last
07:57 night nice and she loved every minute a
08:01 little brisket and how’s your glucose
08:04 doing this morning there miss I’ve cured
08:07 my diabetes well yes so it was like in
08:09 the like around 120 all night long
08:13 fantastic nice thank you thank you yeah
08:18 hmm and then here we have kind of the
08:22 final category that I’m just gonna call
08:24 the nutrient density group these are the
08:27 the folks are similar too impulsive keto
08:29 we’re you know moderate protein
08:31 reasonable amounts of protein but that
08:33 we really focus on lowering the fat
08:35 macro and allowing that that deficit to
08:40 come primarily from body fat rather than
08:45 nutritional intake and that that’s
08:47 focused mostly on the obese population
08:51 obviously
08:52 that model doesn’t work great if you’re
08:54 in maintenance where you don’t have
08:57 excessive body fat and that that’s where
08:59 this kind of gets interesting is we have
09:01 this conversation and try and unify
09:04 these theories is trying to figure out
09:07 it sort of depends on your goals and it
09:10 also depends on your flexibility and
09:12 desired outcome so guys will what do you
09:18 think it sounds like other than the
09:20 occasional brisket outing there we’re
09:24 we’re all kind of fans of impulsive keto
09:27 we all have a feeling that gut health is
09:29 an important part of nutrition but do
09:32 you do you have any experience with some
09:34 of these other models yeah I mean when I
09:38 began eating ketogenic diets I really
09:43 didn’t pay too much attention to the
09:47 amount of fat that I was eating you know
09:49 when you are 300 pounds what you’re
09:54 seeking first is the the hormonal
09:55 advantage that we were talking about
09:57 earlier so you could get away with it
10:01 right mm-hmm and at that point you know
10:06 I’m just trying to get off the lasagna
10:09 and brownie train so yeah I did that I
10:14 did that for the first a couple of
10:16 months and and then as I went along I
10:19 became more of the meeting a fat macro
10:24 and then after that I started to looking
10:29 more into the nutrient density aspect
10:31 interesting there was a progression for
10:34 me yep for me too actually I started out
10:37 with a completely different spot I
10:40 started out with traditional calorie and
10:42 calorie out you know is gone for 1200
10:45 calories a day just trying to fit you
10:49 know whatever food most felt right to me
10:52 in those 1200 calories and I gravitated
10:56 to keto because eating 1200 calories of
11:00 like bread and pasta is such a
11:02 ridiculously small unsatisfying amount
11:05 like no I’m spending my
11:06 calories on what I found most you know
11:11 satiating which was like eggs and bacon
11:13 and so it and then I realized hey that
11:16 is Quito and at the same time I got a
11:19 diabetes diagnosis and that ham it all
11:21 came together so so I was always in this
11:24 strictly limited calorie counting mode
11:28 from the beginning and then went to two
11:32 taquito and then from there
11:35 impulsive keto with you know fasting and
11:38 nutrient density so I never had the the
11:41 fat extravaganza experience in my own
11:47 experience I started back with the old
11:50 school dr. Atkins mule revolution stuff
11:54 yeah generation 2 Atkins diet which but
12:00 it was ketogenic and in part but also
12:03 not completely you know the whole thing
12:06 about the Atkins diet was dr. Atkins had
12:09 a point of view that compliance was the
12:11 most difficult part about a diet so his
12:14 job was to get you into ketosis by
12:16 whatever means necessary that was
12:19 reliable this is similar to the approach
12:21 that dr. Westman uses even today which
12:25 is just a macros or anything like that
12:28 it’s meal composition you know here’s a
12:31 food list you can have all the bacon
12:34 cheeseburgers you want go nuts and do
12:37 that for a couple weeks until you’re
12:39 really in ketosis and then you would
12:42 move on
12:43 that’s called induction and then you
12:45 would move on to Phase two where you
12:46 would bring in more variety of nutrient
12:50 sources you know various vegetables or
12:52 whatever else and there was a phase 3
12:55 and it kind of progressed on for many
12:58 people they would kind of tiptoe between
13:02 phase 1 and phase 2 keeping carbs kind
13:05 of below 40 or 50 yeah and not using any
13:09 sort of macros or restrictions just
13:11 satiety so depending on what phase of
13:14 Atkins you’re in you were somewhere
13:16 between all the fat you wish and you
13:19 know
13:19 this high-protein sort of stuff I did
13:23 that I did that 16 17 years ago and I
13:27 stayed between in phase 1 and phase 2
13:30 induction and was it ongoing weight loss
13:33 is what it was called and the difference
13:36 was between 1 and 2 this is this is what
13:38 got me you know wandering into adding
13:41 more carbs that you could add nuts yeah
13:48 so I would add those and add you know my
13:51 my progress was slow and my hunger would
13:53 increase so I go back to the induction
13:55 phase but I just have I did have good
13:58 results with that now I didn’t eat all
14:02 the meat that I I know back with the old
14:07 Atkins model you could eat as much meat
14:10 as you wanted but I just didn’t want
14:12 that much and I think that had a lot to
14:15 do with um with just how induction and
14:19 being in ketosis controls your hunger
14:21 now see I had I I went full hog into it
14:25 I used to make this stuff I would call a
14:28 stinky mongolian chicken salad you know
14:31 I would take like four pounds of chicken
14:33 breast and boil it up and then slather
14:36 and mayonnaise smoked paprika and just
14:40 make this you know chicken salad that
14:42 was basically just mayonnaise chicken in
14:45 a ziplock bag and I would just eat out
14:47 of it like a pony tastic and I was
14:51 probably eating 3,000 to 3,500 calories
14:54 a day still losing weight I’ve been
14:59 still go stuff like that works for him
15:01 because you know is Viking sized right
15:03 so well that so that’s the interesting
15:05 part of this is it it worked
15:08 uh-huh works it works for mark – he’s
15:14 you know he’s his hands are the size of
15:18 my like it’s the size of my head so you
15:21 know he can get away with a little bit
15:23 of that he’s a large lad someone say I
15:27 guess I think it would work for me you
15:30 know I’m not a large ladder or
15:32 anymore a little woman I can’t imagine
15:36 eating 3,000 calories of fat my stomach
15:40 just won’t won’t tolerate it with the
15:43 heart condition the vagus nerve gets
15:45 irritated and I won’t do it hmm there’s
15:48 no way I’m kind of curious so it sounds
15:51 like a great way to spend a day just you
15:54 know binge eating fatty stuff giving a
15:57 meaty fatty stuff yeah you know but we
16:01 do see a certain subset of our
16:03 population the body lifter said then
16:06 we’ll we’ll do that they could just
16:08 pound eating chicken breasts and you
16:14 could like nuts I mean like I I saw
16:17 Gabor or doses mentioned 80 pounds of
16:22 butter and Brazil nuts every night I I
16:27 don’t I I have no idea what that man’s
16:29 body composition is like I mean he’s a
16:30 skinny little dude is he skinny you know
16:33 and if I was a skinny dude I could
16:35 increase my fats and my carbs a little
16:38 bit but I ain’t and I still got the good
16:41 30 40 pounds to go right no I just don’t
16:44 see buttered Brazil nuts I mean maybe a
16:47 little bit but a lot maybe you know my
16:50 parents were all low fat that’s how I
16:52 was you know raised obviously low fat
16:54 doesn’t work but still I have this kind
16:56 of instinctive horror of eating butter
17:01 well confession time Tim and I who are
17:06 both long-distance cyclists have a
17:08 buttered an almond or two in a ziplock
17:11 bag for on the trail fuel and I include
17:16 butter I don’t really like butter that
17:18 much but I will include eating an
17:21 avocado and some nuts and maybe but I’ll
17:24 butter or something my vegetables or
17:26 whatever if I’m about to embark on a
17:29 road on a multi-day fast I’ll have
17:32 absolutely I’ll have nuts or or whatever
17:35 but I just feel like limiting it to what
17:38 I consider a reasonable portion size is
17:39 you know saying yeah well not so you got
17:43 to be concerned about the carb content
17:45 I mean there it can get out of hand
17:47 really quickly with especially with some
17:49 nuts more than others you know you ate a
17:51 handful walnuts he can get away with it
17:53 but he’s very handful of cashews or
17:55 peanuts and things get are sketchy
17:57 pretty quick if you start wandering away
18:00 from the traditional mud into the
18:02 legumes and droops and into trouble oh
18:06 look at you miss nutritional wizard with
18:09 the face I love showing pictures of
18:12 cashews growing because they look like
18:14 grumpy little Dwarfs yes there that’s
18:17 not a nut
18:17 there’s nothing nut about it no but they
18:20 are delicious and that is one thing that
18:23 Jennifer and I both do I don’t know if
18:24 you do this either but the silk brand
18:27 cashew milk is delicious
18:29 it is delicious and it is what’s at 25
18:33 calories per cup that’s right it is and
18:36 it Frost’s up nicely for your coffee
18:38 can’t go wrong with that let’s talk
18:42 about why we wanted to have a show about
18:47 this more fat business so you know here
18:49 we are all saying we all tried it and
18:51 it’s sort of worked and we see it
18:53 working for a lot of people it is not
19:07 uncommon for someone to wander in from
19:10 the wilderness you see what we’re doing
19:12 again Paula Charlatans
19:15 and because as if we don’t understand
19:18 the ketogenic state or the biology
19:20 behind it because in their mind and in
19:23 the way that they’ve been educated we
19:25 expect that if you are not eating enough
19:28 fat how could your body possibly make
19:31 the ketones that are required in order
19:33 to lose weight now let’s talk about how
19:38 that point of view came to pass yeah
19:43 okay because on the face of it to me it
19:46 sounds insane because people lose weight
19:49 when they’re not in Quito so obviously
19:52 trying to consciously make ketones is
19:55 not vital to losing weight well that’s
19:58 what we had
19:58 to look at the history like why these
20:01 high fat ratios came to be that’s right
20:05 so back in the day they figured out that
20:09 you can actually manipulate your brain
20:13 through this metabolic model of ketosis
20:17 they could take little kids and feed
20:21 them very high fat diets and medical
20:25 conditions like epilepsy and brain
20:27 injuries would respond quite favorably
20:30 to being in this ketogenic model well
20:34 you know this is back in the olden days
20:36 before we had super sophisticated
20:39 nutritional understanding and the way
20:42 that they would teach this is very
20:43 simple they would use ratios of how many
20:46 of your calories should be coming from
20:48 fat versus protein versus carbohydrate
20:51 so whenever you see someone talking
20:54 about macros as ratios that is somebody
20:58 from the medical side of the house
21:00 that’s medical Kido and we still teach
21:04 that today if you go up to the Charlie
21:06 Foundation website you will see about
21:08 half of the the articles and
21:10 documentation is ratio based there their
21:16 goal is very simple to provoke the
21:19 maximum number of ketones to be created
21:23 in the liver so that your brain has the
21:26 influence of being ketone powered rather
21:29 than glucose powered the more ketones
21:34 you make up to a point the more
21:37 effective this medical therapy this
21:41 nutritional therapy will work to help
21:45 influence these spring conditions
21:47 especially things like epilepsy it wit
21:51 without argument you take somebody’s
21:53 epileptic you you put them in deep
21:55 ketosis with lots of ketones their
21:58 seizure count will go down but by a
22:01 factor of 90% or maybe it’s incredible
22:06 yeah now you’re saying this for epilepsy
22:09 and related conditions like
22:12 other things here like I unfortunately
22:15 know the friends who has brain cancer is
22:18 that something well so cancer is kind of
22:21 its own thing right and I don’t want to
22:24 go too far down that rat hole because
22:26 frankly we don’t have a lot of science
22:28 about that here’s what we know the brain
22:31 is an organ just like any other part of
22:34 your body and it kind of has a
22:35 preferential metabolic fuel it wants to
22:39 use glucose and it has the ability to
22:41 use ketones you when your brain is
22:45 running primarily on glucose it will
22:47 behave in a very specific way when it
22:50 runs on ketones about 50/50 you will see
22:54 that the brain tissue actually responds
22:57 differently this has a favorable
23:01 influence for conditions like epilepsy
23:04 for things like cancer and that sort of
23:08 thing it goes into a whole nother theory
23:10 of how can you influence the metabolism
23:14 of a cancer cell externally if you you
23:18 know cancer loves sugar you you know the
23:20 standard cancer detection tests called a
23:22 PET test they give you radioactive sugar
23:24 and the the tumor will suck it up extra
23:27 quick and then they can put you in a
23:29 machine and see that radioactive sugar
23:32 and point it out so if you deny the
23:35 sugar in theory you’re starving the
23:37 tumor now the in practice is way more
23:40 complex at topic than that one sentence
23:43 but that that’s kind of why you hear
23:45 people talk about that but it’s more
23:47 about the metabolic behavior of a cell
23:50 that never dies and is greedy to grow
23:52 that rather than the you know the state
23:56 of the organ tissue where you know when
23:57 we’re talking about neurons and how they
23:59 behave it’s actually very specific and
24:02 unique in the body compared to other
24:04 cells like you know the muscle cell in
24:06 your leg does not favorably use glucose
24:10 and ketones and behave differently the
24:13 tissue behaves identically okay okay so
24:16 this other guy the the bulletproof guy
24:18 Dave Asprey mm-hmm he says that like
24:23 when you have high ketones that his
24:25 brain make some sharper and so that’s
24:27 why all these Silicon Valley
24:28 entrepreneur CEO types are all like you
24:32 know high ketones so you’re extra sharp
24:34 and you’re you know genius-level IQ on
24:37 keto there is no debate about the fact
24:41 that if your brain is running on dual
24:44 fuel you will certainly perceive to be
24:48 in a higher state of awareness sharpness
24:52 intelligence whatever you want to call
24:54 it I experienced that myself all the
24:57 time and if you give a layperson a shot
25:01 of ketones they will feel boosted sped
25:03 up and very mentally alert that’s Phoebe
25:06 they will it’s a pretty common
25:08 phenomenon and obviously is the backbone
25:11 of you know Dave’s multi-million dollar
25:13 coconut business so ketones are awesome
25:19 we want high ketones your brain behaves
25:22 differently and in most cases quite
25:24 favorably when provided with multiple
25:26 metabolic substrate ketones plus glucose
25:29 there’s no scenario where your brain
25:31 doesn’t use glucose by the way it always
25:34 is using some sugar we can provide
25:38 ketones as well is that’s when the
25:42 behavior will start to shift so you’re
25:45 not saying that we have to have some
25:47 sugar in our diet that right that’s
25:49 right it’s a critical part of the the
25:52 brain tissue that it requires glucose
25:55 and it’s such a critical part that
25:57 you’ve evolved biological systems that
26:01 will make it will spin sugar out of thin
26:05 air if needed to provide fuel for the
26:09 brain that’s good cuz I haven’t had
26:10 sugar in a while and I you know I don’t
26:13 want to die if your blood glucose drops
26:15 low within minutes you will pass out you
26:18 will black out your your brain will turn
26:20 off well if I can suck the sugar out of
26:23 your blood literally in minutes you will
26:25 be asleep on the floor you can ask any
26:28 type one diabetic that’s right yeah yeah
26:31 give me a little bit of insulin and I
26:33 can show you yeah yeah no need no
26:35 actually no once I understand it’s
26:39 good yeah I’ve seen the well not seen
26:43 heard then go and go hypo sometimes it’s
26:47 not fun it’s happened okay yeah totally
26:51 it happened to me yeah and I felt like
26:53 you know I was fuzzy and passing out
26:55 that is gonna die but all did yeah yeah
26:58 it gets weird your brain starts to
27:01 behave differently so I kind of coming
27:04 back to this here your brain bathes
27:07 differently on ketones and your liver
27:10 will make a maximal amount of ketones
27:13 when provided with an overwhelming
27:15 amount of nutritional fact if you want
27:20 to make a kid with epilepsy have less
27:22 seizures your goal is to cram as much
27:25 fat down their gullet is you can get
27:27 away with while providing adequate
27:30 levels of protein okay so the easiest
27:35 way to teach that without getting too
27:37 hardcore into the science is to say look
27:39 this is fat 80% of the kids fat re
27:44 person and the kids diet needs to be fat
27:47 yeah and that’s how nutritionists in the
27:51 epilepsy world teach it yeah eighty
27:54 percent figure used in weight loss
27:56 curves here sure well so that’s that’s
27:59 kind of the etiology the evolution of
28:03 this thing is when you see someone in a
28:06 weight loss group talking about ratios
28:10 you now know that they’re using
28:12 literature based on medical ketosis not
28:17 weight loss ketosis and it’s almost a
28:19 cultural thing in these little subgroups
28:22 that because they’re using this
28:27 literature these ratios that are you
28:30 know a hundred years old and based on
28:32 this therapeutic level of ketosis they
28:35 consider their their form of keto more
28:39 pure we’re doing the real ketogenic diet
28:42 you other people are doing low-carb
28:47 saying that they there is a lot of that
28:50 it’s my point of view that
28:52 if you’re using ratios it’s an
28:54 unsophisticated approach because ratios
28:58 have no context in and of themselves
29:02 because you could be eating a thousand
29:06 calories or 3,000 calories and maintain
29:08 the same ratio as long as you’re under
29:11 20 grams of carbs right it’s all good
29:14 well yeah the ratio of carbs needs to be
29:16 very very low right and if you’re an
29:19 eight-year-old kid as long as your
29:22 ratios are good and you’re trying to get
29:24 lots of high ketones
29:26 it doesn’t matter what the calorie count
29:28 is you can feed a kid to satiety
29:32 and as long as you maintain those ratios
29:34 they will have a therapeutic level of
29:36 ketones in their serum
29:37 and they won’t gain weight mission
29:39 accomplished they will not become obese
29:41 while you’re trying to maintain brain
29:43 health that’s right well ok a little
29:46 different for first grown-ups that’s
29:50 where the wheels come off the wagon on
29:53 this all the fat calories don’t matter
29:56 there’s some group out there who is
29:59 using the term CI Co tard is that right
30:03 is that his thing like there’s a
30:08 psychopath I did psychopath psychopath
30:11 the calories in calories out path his
30:15 pointed at you I personally got called
30:17 that by him I feel deeply honored so
30:20 this dude has a point of view that
30:22 anybody who’s using calories is and has
30:28 an approach that is not respecting the
30:31 power of the ketone
30:35 it’s an outdated concept the calories
30:38 don’t matter I’ve seen this it is
30:40 bizarre that in 2018 here we are still
30:45 talking about debating whether or not
30:48 calories actually influence energy
30:50 balance well I I understand the
30:52 reasoning ok I I’ve read this stuff I
30:55 can’t explain a little bit their
30:57 reasoning is it’s all about insulin and
30:59 so if you keep insulin low by only
31:02 eating like a adequate but small amount
31:04 of protein and
31:06 idea of adequate protein it’s very small
31:08 sure because protein is in slow genic so
31:12 you want to minimize it and you make up
31:14 the remaining amount of your calories by
31:16 fat which is very low insulin genic then
31:19 you keep your insulin low and if your
31:20 insulin is low since insulin is the fat
31:23 storage hormone then you can’t gain
31:26 weight well where does that energy go it
31:33 was what they they claim that it’s
31:35 wasted they claim that it’s converted in
31:36 the ketones and that you pee out the
31:38 ketones if you don’t use them I really
31:41 hope these people are hooked up to
31:42 oxygen because when you met when you
31:43 metabolize fat you breathe most of it
31:46 out so I mean unless they’re like just
31:51 spray and butter every time they open
31:53 their mouths I it’s going somewhere they
31:57 are storing it
31:58 yeah maybe nine levels of ketones that
32:03 you can make in a given day
32:04 that in you know just back in a napkin
32:07 you’re not going to make more than seven
32:09 or eight hundred calories with the
32:10 ketones in a day I don’t care how much
32:12 fat you’re eating and that’s if you’re
32:14 really good at making ketones that is a
32:17 robust level of liver output yeah I
32:21 don’t make that much hey I figured this
32:23 logic was just flawed on this face of it
32:25 because obviously you don’t have you
32:28 never have zero insulin that’s right in
32:31 store some of it is fat right you’re
32:34 right basal insulin is not zero that’s
32:39 the problem that type ones run into if
32:41 you have a type one who’s truly unable
32:43 to produce their own insulin and they
32:47 they stop adding any insulin bad things
32:49 happen you have to have a certain amount
32:51 of insulin all the time now it’s a road
32:54 map it’s arguably very low amount but
32:57 it’s not zero yeah I know when with
32:59 these type 1 diabetics it’s not the it’s
33:02 not just fat that’s being burned their
33:05 whole body is a-wastin hmm but that that
33:09 is nonetheless logic low insulin is as
33:12 minimize the insulin and then you can’t
33:14 generate you can minimize the insulin by
33:18 containing a more rational form of the
33:24 ketogenic diet and by fasting you don’t
33:26 I know I still I’m honored that the man
33:32 himself called me a psychopath
33:35 there are many people to step on to get
33:37 to that point so I’d like to say
33:39 everyone I certainly have the point of
33:44 view that that metabolically might work
33:47 on paper in practice that’s gonna work
33:52 okay on someone who’s really well who’s
33:55 medically obese yeah I know I was saying
33:59 before I ate you know eggs cooked in
34:04 butter with some cheese and bacon and I
34:07 would eat nuts and seeds and all kinds
34:11 of yummy fatty things at the beginning
34:13 and I could easily lose weight and it it
34:17 was inflammation it was some body fat
34:20 but you know eventually the party has to
34:23 stop my hormones it’s stabilized and it
34:26 was time to get down to just putting one
34:28 foot in front of the other by looking at
34:31 at my menu and my nutrient density and
34:35 the energy flux well and you know not to
34:39 put you put any names on this but we
34:42 have personally worked with some really
34:46 large people over 350 pounds and they
34:50 easily are losing weight that exceeds
34:54 2000 calories a day oh sure I was you
34:57 know I was easily right when you’re big
35:01 yeah when you have 20 pounds to lose
35:06 this metabolic theory gets proven in the
35:13 harsh level of sunlight that that will
35:15 bring I feel an experiment coming on I
35:18 think I’m going to eat all the eggs and
35:21 cheese and see what happens I certainly
35:27 understand that any change
35:31 a favorable hormone environment is
35:33 generally going to be favorable I also
35:36 believe that for most people a certain
35:39 amount of sanity you will kick in and
35:41 they’re not going to do things like
35:44 dunking their avocado and butter or
35:48 eating their bombs my that’s my fantasy
35:53 the reality is that some of these groups
35:56 are extremely popular because that’s
35:59 exactly what people do
36:01 they’re quite militant about it there is
36:03 you know and it’s just a culture that’s
36:08 there that you have to do things this
36:09 way this is what works and you know
36:12 don’t don’t stray from the message I was
36:15 just talking with someone who was
36:18 cooking a steak in six tablespoons of
36:22 butter
36:23 mm-hmm they were deep deep frying a
36:26 steak what are you doing like well dick
36:30 gotta get my fat in so I’m thinking this
36:32 nice ribeye and I’m putting six
36:34 tablespoons of butter on I was just
36:37 reading a story about this woman who’s
36:39 said you know help I can’t my weight
36:41 loss is stalled and then she says every
36:44 morning she has a couple of cups of
36:46 coffee with four tablespoons of MCT oil
36:49 I can’t even begin to know okay sure I
36:56 can have one tablespoon and a little
36:58 clear me right there well if you were
37:01 trying to manage your epilepsy that
37:02 would be awesome
37:03 totally well that was her thing is she
37:06 is trying to manage a cancer and she
37:09 wants turkey hands are probably north a
37:13 4.0 that’s what I’m you know so I can
37:17 see the appeal of this and the power of
37:19 it because a lot of the issue with with
37:22 weight loss and dieting and lifestyle
37:25 choices is compliance right is
37:28 attractiveness and so we can say to
37:30 people you know eat all the fat you want
37:33 you’re gonna lose weight and it works
37:34 then we’ve sucked them in and we’ve made
37:37 a positive change in their lives and
37:38 that’s something that maybe fixes their
37:42 their problems with hormones and
37:44 diabetes
37:45 and so II so what they they have a
37:47 weight-loss tell I mean it’s still
37:48 better hey you know what that’s the
37:51 thing this is this is where I I can get
37:55 a little heated when people start the
37:58 ketogenic diet it is all about
38:00 compliance it’s they have to radically
38:01 change the way that they eat and so
38:04 those first three months if they want to
38:06 do stuff like butter a pork rind all
38:09 right sure you know you’re still gonna
38:12 have good results you’re gonna stabilize
38:13 your hormones your a1c is going to
38:16 improve because a lot of these people
38:17 they’re coming to us really sick
38:19 they’re so insulin resistant that
38:21 anything is better exactly so if I could
38:25 just get them off you know the pan of
38:27 brownies and get them going for three
38:30 months the this begins the dialogue huge
38:33 change exactly exactly so you know if
38:37 they want to start off right away with
38:39 looking at having the sort of meal
38:44 balance that we have cool but um if they
38:49 want to start off with trying off the
38:51 trying out all these fun recipes like
38:54 the you know bacon-wrapped avocado I
38:59 think if that’s what’s gonna that’s what
39:01 it’s gonna take to get them through that
39:03 first three months because once a person
39:05 starts a diet within twelve weeks about
39:09 ninety percent of people stop let me ask
39:13 you a question
39:14 I mean maybe is it even better to start
39:18 with a high fat ratio eat all you want
39:20 to satiety approach for people who are
39:23 who have metabolic issues you know if
39:25 trying to minimize the insulin like that
39:27 yeah well the key it’s not so much
39:30 eating all the fats to to stabilize the
39:33 hormones it’s keeping the the carbs low
39:37 enough frame that that’s where the
39:39 satiety comes in because they they get
39:41 into ketosis it’s not the fat isn’t
39:43 magical it is restricting the
39:46 carbohydrates and so as there’s there’s
39:50 an important point that I want to make
39:52 sure you caught that Karen if in the I
39:55 came odd –all the amount of protein
39:57 that
39:58 we would suggest like for it typical
40:00 would be about 30 grams per meal yeah is
40:03 not provocative of abnormal levels of
40:06 insulin not until you go into if you
40:11 take sixty grams of protein as a
40:12 diabetic that would see supernatural
40:18 levels of insulin release because of the
40:22 insulin resistance so part of the
40:25 premise of your question is flawed
40:27 because it assumes a level of protein
40:29 intake that’s sufficient to provoke an
40:33 unnatural level of insulin that’s
40:36 extending this insulin resistance but a
40:39 reasonable portion of protein will not
40:41 have that provocation okay yeah with the
40:50 people that are starting a lot of them
40:51 it’s it’s more the problem of the added
40:53 butter for our ladies some of the men
40:56 that start we have to have a talk about
40:59 about the amount of rotisserie chickens
41:02 they’re eating and one serving but is
41:07 it’s usually that’s as long as they’re
41:09 keeping the the amount the portion of
41:12 protein reasonable so it starts at
41:14 thirty that I’d like to see them at
41:16 thirty is sort of a minimum and then you
41:19 know anywhere upward Oh 4045 it’s cool
41:23 it’s that’s a palm-sized portion not the
41:26 plate sized portion of brisket that I
41:28 had last night I use Ben’s palms for
41:31 reference cuz nice very good you know
41:36 this kind of brings up an an interesting
41:38 aside we know a guy
41:41 bacon Dan big and Dan bacon Dan is a
41:46 maniac because what he did is he goes
41:50 out on the internet and goes I’m gonna
41:52 eat nothing but bacon for a month for
41:55 one month it’s one month
41:57 it’s I’m just eating bacon yeah that’s
42:00 right and I’m going to lose weight and
42:01 I’m gonna do it on camera and you can
42:03 all watch me out then document it and it
42:05 works and it totally works
42:08 but here’s the thing after a month you
42:12 got to change it up and he knows this
42:15 now he’s he’s had a come-to-jesus moment
42:18 that he might was all along you he is
42:21 being sneaky that all right and then you
42:27 got to change it up now I have to say
42:28 that eating bacon for a month it sounds
42:31 kind of good well if your goal is to
42:34 attract retain and get compliance waving
42:38 lots of bacon is certainly be reasonable
42:42 bake that’s right I put on the bacon
42:45 costume and his amber colored you know
42:48 blue blockers and I would do the whole
42:49 thing totally can I just do a bacon week
42:52 cuz actually a bacon month sounds gonna
42:54 boring a big a month would be torture
42:56 for me I mean I love bacon to me it
42:58 sounds like a way to hate bacon but Dan
43:00 you know I I know Dan he’s he lives not
43:04 too far away from me and he loves bacon
43:08 all right talking Canadian bacon are we
43:12 no no yeah no no he’s eating some
43:14 Canadian bacon he’s eating he gets this
43:18 especially farmed heritage big bacon and
43:21 you know naturally smoked so he gets the
43:23 traditional American bacon that you’re
43:26 used to the pork belly pork belly is it
43:29 the belly okay so they’re the three
43:31 kinds of bacon you got your pork loin
43:33 which is the Canadian bacon
43:35 you got the pork belly which is the
43:36 American and then you got the the
43:37 English bacon which is a combination of
43:39 both
43:39 he actually includes a little of that
43:42 peameal Canadian bacon in there
43:45 sometimes do he’ll sneak one in there
43:46 and that has corn the the point of this
43:51 is not that we’re advocating bacon but
43:53 more of it the reality of this stuff is
43:57 any favorable change to the hormone
44:00 environment will yield results in the
44:04 insulin resistance that’s right any
44:06 change any change at all it can be fat
44:09 bombs buttered coffee I’m under nothing
44:12 but bacon all perfectly legitimate ways
44:17 to con you into adopting the ketogenic
44:21 lifestyle
44:22 once again it begins the dialogue it
44:26 right it’s an engagement it’s an empty
44:29 okay but you say it stops working after
44:31 a bit yeah not sustainable yeah I mean
44:36 who’s gonna eat bacon for a year you
44:38 don’t hear it you don’t hear anyone
44:40 talking about the bacon a year no yeah
44:43 probably not
44:45 I mean it’s certainly the you know we
44:47 covered this in the zero carb world but
44:49 well some people would say that you
44:52 could because zero Carver’s do right
44:55 they’re saying like steak every day
44:56 ribeye and round beef and they they
44:58 don’t go off the villain in Atkins in
45:01 his book even from the 70s he’s like you
45:04 don’t have to leave induction you can
45:05 just keep eating bacon cheeseburgers
45:07 till you hit your goal weight mm-hmm
45:09 that and he wasn’t wrong when he said
45:12 that so I can eat bacon cheeseburgers
45:15 from the rest of my life yes that’s what
45:18 here’s that here’s where the wheels get
45:22 a little wobbly on this theory it also
45:25 has an assumption that at some point a
45:29 natural level of satiety will kick in
45:32 and govern your caloric intake to be a
45:36 minor deficit if you do not you will not
45:42 only not lose weight you absolutely can
45:44 gain weight on a high-fat ketogenic diet
45:48 like that okay
45:50 there’s a very prominent podcaster who
45:53 unfortunately started you know go back
45:57 and look at pictures from 2014 to now
46:00 and you will see a hundred and twenty
46:02 pounds of increase despite publicly
46:05 documented ketosis for the past you know
46:08 four or five years
46:09 he claims it’s an 80 pound again
46:11 whatever just to clarify I don’t know
46:15 what he claims I just know that uh
46:17 there’s a lot more belt than there used
46:20 to be yes he is maintaining a lost a 180
46:23 pounds originally and is maintaining
46:25 that he’s kept over a hundred pounds of
46:27 it off so I you know I wouldn’t know I’m
46:30 not a I’m not a fan I’m not an audience
46:33 member I just
46:34 look at the pictures and go it’s a lot
46:37 and what it is is a very simple flawed
46:40 premise which is once you reclaim your
46:44 insulin sensitivity you’re going to
46:47 continue to lose weight and it’s simply
46:49 not the case without a calorie deficit
46:52 you will not lose weight in the long
46:54 term you know there’s been dudes on the
46:57 internet who do stuff like 5,000
46:59 calories for 30 days challenge and stuff
47:02 like that you go yeah
47:05 because your body has all kinds of
47:07 buffering and adjustments they can ramp
47:10 up thermogenesis it can wastegate all
47:13 this stuff to a point and for a period
47:17 of time do that for six months buddy you
47:20 you tell me about 5,000 calories for six
47:23 months and tell me what happens I’ll
47:25 tell you what happens they start to look
47:27 a little hippy well I think things get a
47:30 things get around and smooth and in the
47:33 rear section of the bus that’s for sure
47:35 I’ve seen some pictures well and many of
47:40 the people listening and you know I’m
47:42 sure ourselves included have all been
47:45 eating well and still gain weight
47:48 despite staying more or less on plan but
47:50 not being calorie restrained yeah I
47:53 agree I agree here is what we’re here to
47:57 say and this is why we’re recording this
47:59 show the more fat model is not an
48:04 optimal model will it work in the
48:08 beginning yes right up until the point
48:12 when you reclaim your insulin
48:13 sensitivity then all hell’s gonna break
48:18 loose
48:19 you are gonna stall you’re gonna gain
48:22 weight you’re gonna feel that you need
48:25 to eat more in order to feel satisfied
48:28 it will not work and that’s when people
48:32 come looking for people right I mean
48:34 some for a while some people can just
48:36 keep doing that and their natural
48:37 instant insulin sensitivity and satiety
48:40 and whatever you know they can just
48:42 maintain forever without having to tweak
48:45 it right
48:46 yeah I’ve seen it happen a handful of
48:48 times that have 200,000 people probably
48:52 the number of times I’ve seen that
48:54 happen on my hand and human biology is
48:58 incredibly diverse anything is possible
49:01 and you’re talking about an infinite
49:03 number of variables right yeah I have
49:06 certainly seen people who make that
49:08 claim but I also have not seen for years
49:11 of photographic calorie intake evidence
49:15 showing that they were not eating at a
49:19 deficit that whole time you know so show
49:23 me someone who says they can eat all
49:25 they want and have for the past four
49:27 years and lost 200 pounds and then show
49:30 me their food log who has the time the
49:32 five thousand calories every day I’m
49:35 saying I did that that is a unicorn I
49:39 don’t think it exists what I think is
49:42 some people that like I said just like
49:45 Atkins wanted back in the 70s his
49:47 fantasy was that at some point your
49:50 natural appetite and regulation will
49:53 start to kick in yeah it will slow down
49:56 naturally and you’ll stop eating 5,000
49:59 calories and it’s wrong to a level of
50:02 maintenance and general weight-loss and
50:05 your body will do the rest
50:07 yeah that would be great I would love
50:11 that but I mean I have been very like
50:13 I’ve been tracking things you know I’ve
50:16 been completely like rock steady around
50:18 145 pounds more or less for the last you
50:21 know one and a half years or so but I
50:24 have to track it and then you know if I
50:26 see it’s like kind of trending upwards I
50:28 got a you know it’s week that yes that
50:31 point you’re dealing with the sub-point
50:32 and sometimes you just got to ride it
50:35 out well and I’m gonna take issue with
50:37 that statement
50:41 we’re switching up the format a little
50:43 bit and splitting each episode into
50:46 about an hour so part two should be in
50:48 your feed just keep hitting play no one
50:52 in this podcast is a provider of health
50:53 care and our discussion is based on
50:55 things we’d be done here now it’s not an
50:56 intent to render medical advice
50:57 community needs issues and the view and
51:00 their doctor from a decisions about
51:01 their medical treatment diagnosis
51:02 especially the impact
51:04 directly with the charging dock
51:05 reliability their meditation before on
51:08 change nutritional birth or fashion
51:10 quick mini vacations are known
51:11 incompatible longer passionately be safe
51:14 and Okinawa
51:18 you
51:21 [Music]